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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: 3 Christian schoolgirls beheaded by Muslims in Indonesia. |
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Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm
They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.
This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians.
A government-brokered truce has only partially succeeded in reducing the number of incidents in recent years.
Police say the heads were found some distance from the bodies.
It is unclear what was behind the attack, but the girls attended a private Christian school and one of the heads was left outside a church leading to speculation that it might have had a religious motive.
Islamic state
Central Sulawesi and Poso in particular was the scene of bitter fighting between Muslims and Christians in 2001 and 2002.
More than 1,000 people were killed before a government-brokered truce.
Although the violence has been subdued, it has never gone away completely.
A bomb in May in the nearby town of Tentena, which is predominantly Christian, killed 22 people and injured over 30.
The fighting four years ago drew Islamic militants from all over Indonesia and many have never gone home.
Analysts say the militants have targeted central Sulawesi and believe that it could be turned into the foundation stone of an Islamic state.
The analysts have warned that the violence could resurface at any time. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Yea, I read that. Its really sick. I can get very angry about that so I'll just send another $50 off to the BNP. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, TY for the post. Rememeber Abu Graib? I thought Abu Graib was BS. This is bad. We all read it but I bet many here tried to hide or not share it. I saw that but didn't post it due problems with confronations here. I also didn't want to seem fixated on one issue. Do you think the Muslims raped these girls first? Do you think the Muslims had mercy? Were they quick? How did they pick out which head to throw in front of the school? where are the human rights activists. Any human shields for these girls or just for Saddam Hussain? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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There was a programme on TV today about the history of Islam in Britain, in which muslims were once again whining about discrimination and 'Islamophobia'. As this incident demonstrates, infidelphobia has far more serious consequences.
But these are not isolated incidents, but the latest acts of brutality in a litany of offences committed against religious minorities in muslim states. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Verne, how did you come to despise Liberals? I started to question them during the Vietnam War. The protesters had an easy job. They stay pretty much in The USA where they are protected and shout things to USA authority figures who are at home watching TV. Then they all go to a bar and talk about what a great day they had. To be honest, I think protesting is fun.
Then there's the real hard part. I really don't believe the USA is evil. In fact, I think its just the opposite. The hard part is those other bad guys Idi Amin, Mugabe, countless Iranian mullahs, Saddam Hussein. These are bad people with like dungeons and torture crews.
There is no way any liberals could protest them because of the visciousness of the regime. Instead of meeting the challenge or admiting there are things that really frighten them, they turn against the West like spoiled children where they can have a safe protest and victory donut.
They simply don't have the integrity, strength or intelligence to take on really bad people. They are disturbingly effete. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually there have been christian attrocities against muslims as well as vice-versa in the Poso region. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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yeah thanks dulouz- this report just struck me as particularly grievous. The killing of 3 innocent and defenceless schoolgirls.
As tyou say it is part of the bigger picture of non-islamic communities, usually christian, being isolated and gradually targetted.
I'm sure the Christian communities in Indonesia have tried to defend themselves..but essentially christianity is a far more tolerant culture- muslims live in peace in christian countries where they are the minority. Christianity is largely a matter of choice. Islam isn't.
where's bucheon bum to defend this atrocity? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
Verne, how did you come to despise Liberals? I started to question them during the Vietnam War. The protesters had an easy job. They stay pretty much in The USA where they are protected and shout things to USA authority figures who are at home watching TV. Then they all go to a bar and talk about what a great day they had. To be honest, I think protesting is fun.
Then there's the real hard part. I really don't believe the USA is evil. In fact, I think its just the opposite. The hard part is those other bad guys Idi Amin, Mugabe, countless Iranian mullahs, Saddam Hussein. These are bad people with like dungeons and torture crews.
There is no way any liberals could protest them because of the visciousness of the regime. Instead of meeting the challenge or admiting there are things that really frighten them, they turn against the West like spoiled children where they can have a safe protest and victory donut.
They simply don't have the integrity, strength or intelligence to take on really bad people. They are disturbingly effete. |
Are you speaking of "liberals" who live in those respective countries? Otherwise your rant doesn't make any sense.  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Horrible. Just as horrible as the white supremacist "christians" who blew up the daycare in Oklahoma. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
There is no way any liberals could protest them because of the visciousness of the regime. Instead of meeting the challenge or admiting there are things that really frighten them, they turn against the West like spoiled children where they can have a safe protest and victory donut.
They simply don't have the integrity, strength or intelligence to take on really bad people. They are disturbingly effete. |
You're right. Those wimpy liberals aren't nearly as brave as Bush, Cheney and the other neo-con chicken hawks. Did you see the way they ordered the invasion of Iraq! 
That took real courage.  |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Actually there have been christian attrocities against muslims as well as vice-versa in the Poso region. |
The story in Indonesia, is one of muslim intolerance and Christian persecution. No doubt there have been acts of revenge committed by Christians, but it is the muslim extremists who are trying to establish a Shariah state and subjugate the minority populations. Over the past few decades hundreds of churches have been burnt down, and life has become increasingly unsafe for minorities in this supposedly secular muslim nation. As rapier has pointed out, in the West minorities including muslims have freedom to practice their religion. It is time we campaigned for such freedom in muslim nations. Until they start to treat religious minorities in a civilized fashion let us end all economic and other aid to them.
The saddest thing is that such stories rarely make news in the Western press, even on the right of the political spectrum. The worldwide abuse of religious minorities in muslim nations is a scandal, yet it is one that some would rather we didn't know about for fear that the 'tolerance' and 'peace' tags attached to Islam might be quickly discarded. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Actually there have been christian attrocities against muslims as well as vice-versa in the Poso region. |
The story in Indonesia, is one of muslim intolerance and Christian persecution. No doubt there have been acts of revenge committed by Christians, but it is the muslim extremists who are trying to establish a Shariah state and subjugate the minority populations. Over the past few decades hundreds of churches have been burnt down, and life has become increasingly unsafe for minorities in this supposedly secular muslim nation. As rapier has pointed out, in the West minorities including muslims have freedom to practice their religion. It is time we campaigned for such freedom in muslim nations. Until they start to treat religious minorities in a civilized fashion let us end all economic and other aid to them.
The saddest thing is that such stories rarely make news in the Western press, even on the right of the political spectrum. The worldwide abuse of religious minorities in muslim nations is a scandal, yet it is one that some would rather we didn't know about for fear that the 'tolerance' and 'peace' tags attached to Islam might be quickly discarded. |
I'd still say that religious minorities have their rights in MOST of Indonesia and enjoy full religious freedom. Church bombings have become more frequent since the late 90s and some are connected to the ongoing power struggles between police and the army. Not all religious violence in Indonesia is what is seems and often religious gangs like Laskar Jihad have been a cover for political violence. For more of an insight into this phenomenon I suggest you read Kevin O'Rourke's "Reformasi". It also sheds light on Christian violence against minority Muslim communities in the outer Islands.
I'm a non-practicing Muslim myself having married into an Acehnese/Sundanese family. I know Indonesia pretty well, having travelled and worked there over the last 12 years. I speak the language and have a degree in International Relations with a heavy focus on Southeast Asian security issues.
I agree with Bigverne to a point, large chunks of the religion are controlled by atavistic revisionists, human rights abuses in its name abound and a minority of Muslims in the west have shown behaviour that would warrant deportation elsewhere.
However, in Indonesia I move in multi-faith circles and see friends and relatives peacefully co-existing with those of other religions. My family has no beef with me and my wife celebrating things such as christmas. I have been there during a major terrorist outrage, infact I almost lost a close life-long friend in the embassy bombing. I saw an outpouring of opposition to such acts by Muslims everywhere in Jakarta and was personally told of their shame over such incidents.
I'm getting long winded here, but my point is that where BV sees nothing but gloom on the horizon, I see some hope, especially in a democratizing, predominantly Muslim nature that has mananged to keep its secular constitution for over 50 years now. Your point of making sanctions would only serve to upset this order and destroy one of the few chances for moderate Islam to thrive in the world today. But anyhow, don't take my word for it, what would I know? Go ahead and read the book. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: |
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If Indonesia is a 'moderate' muslim nation, then Islam is in a very sorry state indeed. If hundreds of churches can be burnt down then I would say that Indonesia's claim to be moderate is very shaky indeed.
| Quote: |
| large chunks of the religion are controlled by atavistic revisionists |
I'm not sure whether they could be labelled 'revisionists'. They are merely carrying on a tradition that has been going on for centuries, and in places like Indonesia, they are gaining ground.
I did not advocate sanctions, but merely an ending of economic and military aid to countries where abuse and discrimination of religious minorities is endemic. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
If Indonesia is a 'moderate' muslim nation, then Islam is in a very sorry state indeed. If hundreds of churches can be burnt down then I would say that Indonesia's claim to be moderate is very shaky indeed.
| Quote: |
| large chunks of the religion are controlled by atavistic revisionists |
I'm not sure whether they could be labelled 'revisionists'. They are merely carrying on a tradition that has been going on for centuries, and in places like Indonesia, they are gaining ground.
I did not advocate sanctions, but merely an ending of economic and military aid to countries where abuse and discrimination of religious minorities is endemic. |
A minority of radical Muslims are guilty of these acts. The vast majority continue to condemn them. Indonesia is still a democracy, albeit a shaky one, but one where Christians are free to profess their faith. It has an increasingly free press, women are not forced to wear the jilbab, indeed its woman President did not and there are few regulations on things like alcohol. There are free elections, a market economy in which 3 million non-Muslim Indonesian Chinese prosper and a vibrant civil society. How much more moderate can I paint it? Have you been there? Are you as intimately aware of the situation there as I am? Do you ever see things in anything other than shades of black and white?
No less an authority on the need for an Islamic reformation than Salman Rushdie was interview on BBC radio recently about his new novel. He talked about the radicalization of Islam in recent years and how this was reflected in his new book, Shalimar the Clown. Rushdie went out of his way to point out that the Islam he knew in India in the 50s and 60s was not the Islam of today. Revisionism is definately a hallmark of the recent era, look at Sukarno's Indonesia, Lebanon pre civil war, Iran under the Shah, pre war Bosnia and modern Turkey.
Economic aid to Indonesia is helping transform that country from one of the most corrupt in the world. Aid in the form of assistance to make institutions more transparent helps countries such as Indonesia to escape the cycle of corruption and abuse of power in which terrorist organizations can thrive. Your well-meaning but ill-considered policy ideas would have disasterous consequences not only for Indonesia, but for the whole world in its fight against terrorism. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| Yea, I read that. Its really sick. I can get very angry about that so I'll just send another $50 off to the BNP. |
Are you talking about the British National Party? The same BNP who have links to neo-Nazi terrorist gangs like combat 18 and whose members post on the openly white nationalist stormfront.org? The same BNP whose leader, Nick Griffin, has been charged with incitement to racial hatred? Mate, I know you are pretty much to the right, but please tell that you don't donate to facist organizations. |
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