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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Revisionism is definately a hallmark of the recent era, look at Sukarno's Indonesia, Lebanon pre civil war, Iran under the Shah, pre war Bosnia and modern Turkey. |
But what were these countries like before the influence of the West. You make Islamic fundamentalism sound like a modern phenomenon rather than the historical constant it has always been. Shariah Law, violent Jihad and the mistreatment of religious minorities are not modern inventions but constants of Islamic history.
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| The same BNP who have links to neo-Nazi terrorist gangs like combat 18 |
Do you have any evidence for this?
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| The same BNP whose leader, Nick Griffin, has been charged with incitement to racial hatred? |
Simply because he has been charged with 'racial hatred' does not mean he is guilty of such a thing. He has been brought to court for calling Islam a 'wicked faith', in effect for voicing his opinion about an ideology, and the fact that such a case has been brought to court is a disgrace. It seems to me a clearly politically motivated action designed to muzzle the BNP, who are the only political party opposing the growth of Islam in the UK. Freedom of speech is fast disappearing in the UK.
Whether you agree with the BNP or not, they are a legitimate democratic political party, and I find them far less distasteful than some of the Shariah supporting 'moderate' muslims so feted by the liberal establishment. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
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You find less distasteful a party that would not only oppose my marriage to someone of another race, but who would also, should I take up my right as a citizen again to live in the UK, 'encourage' her to return home. We all know that would mean forced repatriation. At least I know where I stand with you now.
Combat 18 was founded by BNP members.
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| Founded eleven years ago as a strong-arm squad for the nazi British National Party (BNP), |
http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremism/White_extremism/Combat_18/combat_18.htm
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| The group was formed in the early 90s in response to attacks by Anti-Fascist Action on meetings of the British National Party (BNP) and other far-right groups. |
http://www.answers.com/topic/combat-18
The fact that the BNP are a legitimate party does not in any way lessen the fact that they are a fascist party whose politics are built on a foundation of race. Do you support them? Are you aware of other criminal activities by their members, many of which have been violent?
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| In Barnsley, Joe Hayward, a Labour councillor and magistrate, was physically assaulted by three BNP goons, including the party's candidate, after he refused to hand over copies of the Searchlight tabloid. |
http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/index.php?location=campainging&link=WhyBNPIsFascistParty.htm
Let's not forget their founder, John Tyndall, who has said in the past
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| "Mein Kampf is my Bible." |
and former deputy leader Richard Edmonds who said this
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| "We are 100 per cent racist, yes". |
both from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#Policies
Say what you will about Griffin's charges but how do you defend these howlers?
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| Despite this moderation, Nick Griffin had previously made anti-Semitic statements. His 1997 pamphlet "Who Are The Mindbenders" alleged that a cabal of Jews controlled the British media.[9] He also denied the Holocaust in several party publications prior to becoming leader. |
also from the above link.
So you are defending an openly racist party and its criminal leader who along with other party members have a history of racist action. Again, I am not surprised at this, given the agenda that you push. When people of my faith do something wrong, I condemn. When people of your race act in this manner you dismiss it. You are an appologist for white supremacists at best and a racist at worst. Only thing that remains to be asked is, 'what the hell are you doing in Korea?'
Oh, and if you are not convinced as to the BNP's links to fascism, here is a picture of BNP chief steward Warren Bennett
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I never said I supported the BNP. I simply said that I found them less distasteful than many 'moderate' Islamic groups. Learn to read, and don't misinterpret what I said to suit your own agenda.
Does the BNP have any contemporary links to C18? Which members of the BNP, past or present, have been members of C18?
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| Do you support them? Are you aware of other criminal activities by their members, many of which have been violent? |
No, I don't support them. Neither do I support lazy tags of Nazi and facist to a political party, based on scant evidence that some of their members have been involved in such action. I would rather look at what they stand for and assess them on that basis. They are certainly a nationalist-racist party with some unwholesome characters, but they have changed considerably over the last decade.
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| Are you aware of other criminal activities by their members, many of which have been violent? |
Are you aware of the rampant anti-semitism and support for Shariah amongst the so-called 'moderate' Islamic groups. Yes, I am aware of the criminal activities of a minority of BNP members, although I do not believe it represents the majority of its members.
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| Let's not forget their founder, John Tyndall |
A nasty piece of work, who lost the leadership to Griffin, in part because of his extreme racism. John Tyndall is not really representative of the present-day BNP. His kind of racism is now largely confined to the NF.
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| Say what you will about Griffin's charges but how do you defend these howlers? |
I will not defend his anti-semitism, but I will defend the man's right to free speech and to say what he likes about religions and ideologies without fear of being sent to prison. That's democracy. Again what I find distressing is that muslim holocaust deniers and anti-semites have regular meetings with Tony at Downing Street.
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| So you are defending an openly racist party and its criminal |
No, I challenged your accusations that they had links to C18 and that the charges of 'race hate' against Mr. Griffin were warranted. I disagree with almost everything they say, although I think they should be given the right to say what they want and to address the concerns of the people. If people don't like them, they don't have to vote for them. Again, that is democracy. I find it worrying that the British state is working against a legitimate political party.
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| When people of your race act in this manner you dismiss it. |
Calm down. I merely objected to two allegations you made. Does that mean I wholeheartedly support their agenda?
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| You are an appologist for white supremacists at best and a racist at worst. |
And for you to come to such a conclusion based on what I have written makes you a fool at best, and an imbecile with poor comprehension skills at worst.
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| Oh, and if you are not convinced as to the BNP's links to fascism |
I never said they didn't you fool. I merely contested your statement that they have links to C18, and that the current race hate charges are valid ones. From that you summised that I am a white supremacist. *beep*. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| I find it worrying that the British state is working against a legitimate political party. |
Legitimate perhaps, but you can't condemn outright an openly anti-semitic party. The fact remains that C 18 was founded by BNP members as a paramilitary wing of the party. I condemn wholeheartedly anyone, Muslim or not, who is openly anti-semitic. You are still erring on the side of moral equivication, unable to condemn a party with as many links to fascists an neo-nazis as you can poke a stick at.
If you still don't believe me, go to stormfront.org and take a look at the British forums. BNP members openly post there regarding the party's activities. Then take a scan around the other forums and have a look at the members who either have boardnames alluding to nazi-related themes or avatars that contain fascist symbols. That's without reading the racist filth that gets printed there.
Apart from this, I take real issue with your assertion that there is no such thing of moderate Islam. Its an insult that I could well choose to take personally, but will not. However, continuing to tar a billion people, the great majority of whom have never commited an act of terror, with the same brush borders on bigotry. Yes there are huge problems within the faith, I for one will not deny that, but to take the absolutist position that you do borders on the absurd. Couple that with the fact that you continue to make appologies for the BNP, is it any wonder people will label you an extremist? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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I already said that I find the BNP a distasteful organisation. I merely stated that many muslim organisations are worse, yet do not get anywhere near the battering that the BNP do in the media.
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| I take real issue with your assertion that there is no such thing of moderate Islam. |
There is, but it is a minority allegiance which is overshadowed by mainstream, fundamentalist interpretations of the faith. There may be many moderate muslims, who only loosely follow their faith, or ignore the call to Jihad, but Islam itself is not particularly moderate. Jihad, Shariah and Dhimmitude are part of mainstream Islam, and are certainly not 'moderate' but highly intolerant doctrines. It is no wonder that the Shariah supporting Yusuf Qaradawi is considered a 'moderate' in the Islamic world.
Just take a look at all the muslim countries on the earth. If moderate Islam was dominant, wouldn't this be reflected in the political institutions and level of tolerance of those countries. It is no surprise that the most moderate muslim state, Turkey, is the one where Islam has been most ruthlessly repressed. Ataturk fully understood what an assault on modernity and progress Islam was.
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| Couple that with the fact that you continue to make appologies for the BNP |
I haven't made any apologies. I merely challenged your assertion that they had links to C18, and your view that current race hate charges were valid. I am under no illusions that many of their members are ignorant racists and that they have a history of anti-semitism and holocaust denial. That is not to say I accept everything that the media or certain left-wing websites say about them. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
I already said that I find the BNP a distasteful organisation. I merely stated that many muslim organisations are worse, yet do not get anywhere near the battering that the BNP do in the media.
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It might be a battering but like the old saying goes there's no such thing as bad publicity and the BNP recieve a disproportiante amount of media attention compared to other fringe parties so I reckon the coverage they get helps them.
Dunno what the attraction is though, if dulouz and co feel so strongly about immigration then surely the Tories or UKIP have policies that are similar to their beliefs. Why waste 50 bucks on a party with such tiny support? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Bigverne wrote....
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| The story in Indonesia, is one of muslim intolerance and Christian persecution. No doubt there have been acts of revenge committed by Christians, but it is the muslim extremists who are trying to establish a Shariah state and subjugate the minority populations. Over the past few decades hundreds of churches have been burnt down, and life has become increasingly unsafe for minorities in this supposedly secular muslim nation. |
One would form an opinion from this that Indonesia is a state on the verge of sharia law in which the dhimmi are mercilessly persecuted. I presented an opinion, based on personal experience and first hand knowledge backed up with a source which may contradict this, ie the O'Rourke book. Since I brought it back with me from my last trip home, I have decided to open it up and pull out a quote.....
O'Rourke, Kevin. REFORMASI, Allen & Unwin, 2002.
...."Given that the Indonesian archipeligo was arguably the world's most culturally diverse country, [former President Abdurrahman] Wahid adamantly believed that tolerance of religious differences was essential for Indonesia's national unity. He applied this principle to NU*: rather than an 'exclusive' institution that championed rigid dogma, Wahid wanted NU to be an 'inclusive' organisation that remained tolerant and openminded. This message resonated with the membership of NU....." [pp15-16]
*NU or Nadhlatul Ulama, Indonesia and perhaps the world's largest Islamic Organisation, who in 1999 had a membership of 40 million.
This hardly sounds like the Wahhabist bastion of intollerance that Bigverne says Indonesia is. Still, he claimed that.......
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| They are merely carrying on a tradition that has been going on for centuries, and in places like Indonesia, they are gaining ground. |
I don't think this is so. Again though, my personal insights into the place be dammed, we'll ask someone who observed the last elections in Indonesia, the world's second largest democracy.
From the Christian Science Monitor (no less!)
Last week, Indonesians began an extraordinarily complicated election process, which will culminate midyear with the first direct presidential vote. Early returns in parliamentary elections suggest Mrs. Megawati's Indonesian Democratic Party for Struggle fell behind Golkar, the party of former strongman Suharto, and recent opinion polls give her little chance of winning another term.
But there was no great surge of support for the small minority Islamic political parties. Intriguingly, instead of pressing extremist religious views, they campaigned on workaday issues of government.
This is significant. Indonesia has been beset by a surge of Islamist radicalism and terrorism from militant groups such as Jemaah Islamiyah, responsible for the October 2002 nightclub bombing in Bali, among other attacks. Though the sprouting of these extremist cells is troubling, it is not yet translating into support at the polls for the religious radicalism that would move Indonesia away from the world's mainstream and ally it with the least-developed nations of Islam.
There are several hopeful factors.
First, while Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesians do not follow Islam with the hard-line fervor prevalent in some Arab countries. The practice of Islam varies widely in this sprawling archipelago, which is no stranger to Buddhism and Hinduism.
There we have it, the largest Muslim nation in the world saw no support for radical Islam at the polls, unlike places like Algeria. Moreover, the largest Islamic organisation in that country embraces religious diversity. Bu hang on, aren't we talking about the place where the march of sharia law and the oppression of minorities abound? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Again, if Indonesia is a relatively tolerant muslim nation, then that says a great deal about the state of Islam. If a state where hundreds of churches have been burnt down in the last decade can be considered 'moderate' that says a whole lot. But then, for Islam, maybe that's as good as it gets. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Again, if Indonesia is a relatively tolerant muslim nation, then that says a great deal about the state of Islam. If a state where hundreds of churches have been burnt down in the last decade can be considered 'moderate' that says a whole lot. But then, for Islam, maybe that's as good as it gets. |
Here we go again. Rather than look at the facts you begrudgingly accept my point but spin it to your rather narrow views. You can read the book I mentioned and see that Islamist violence in Indonesia has often been a cover for political violence, especially in the intercine period between the removal of Suharto and the election of the present government. Still, it probably doesn't fit with your black and white views on the subject, so take it as you will. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Whew! Thank God it's not a religious struggle. Just as the Nazi Holocaust wasn't a religious struggle. I can sleep better now. Thanks. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are pathetic. Here's your one chance to get some real insight into what it's really like in Indonesia and it's snipe snipe snipe. After all you read a few blogs on the issue, and you certainly don't need to be told what it's like by someone who lived there for over a decade, speaks the language fluently and is actually married to one.
Here's why you're all pathetic in case it hasn't sunk in: not one question, query, or even sign of curiosity on what it's actually like being married to an Indonesian.
The other glaringly obvious sign that you know nothing of the subject is that you treat Indonesia as some sort of homogenous entity. Indonesia's where those little hobbit-humans were found. Here's a quick way to tell if you're qualified to speak on the subject: without looking it up, quickly name off ten languages or ethnic groups from Indonesia and what religion they're from, or how they interpret Islam differently. Too hard? All right then, what about just in Central Sulawesi?
If that sounds like a lot of twaddle bringing up the issue of ethnic groups in the subject, imagine that I've decided to start speaking on the subject of a brutal murder in the UK but I don't know, or even care whether the person was from London or the outer Hebrides. What's the difference? Then multiply it by about 30 (over 300 ethnic groups).
Once again, the fact that you pass up some real insight into the issue is what makes it pathetic. I would have asked a hundred questions by now, but I suppose that's because I'm not a veritable Indonesian scholar like you all seem to be. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, here it comes. The old "You don't know every little thing about this place" argument. Nice try.
Another nice touch: brutal murder in the UK. Seems there was one last summer. A few dozen innocent victims, I recall. It was in all the papers, remember? How much knowledge do we need about the difference between London and the Hebrides when talking about this one? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I thought you'd say that. No. Not
'you don't know everything about the place' but
'you obviously don't want to know anything about the place'. |
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magicwolfman
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| There are some very valid points expressed by both parties involved. I am not sure who this Mith kid thinks he is, but he is way off base. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Islamist violence in Indonesia has often been a cover for political violence |
I think this is not the exception in this case, this article gives some specifics about Poso, where the attacks took place, and clearly outline several instances of very complicated issues related to the political conflicts, that have been and are being explained in the more simpler, and less damaging terms of Islamist violence.
Three Heads Of The Schoolgirls: Sacrificial For Whom?
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Everyone condemned the beheadings of the three schoolgirls in Poso, Central Sulawesi. The difference is the statements that follow the condemnations. President Susilo Bambang Yudoyono (SBY) in denouncing the murders said the act of terror was related to the excess of the horizontal conflict a few years ago. He said even though the condition in Poso has improved, ��there are always groups that continue to want maintain the hostility and conflict��. SBY��s condemnation however, was not only irresponsible, but also boomerangs to the people of Poso.
The president��s statement was irresponsible because once again the government blamed the Poso conflict among religions as the source of violence, while closing his eyes on the clash between local political elites, political economical interests and vast corruption in Poso. The last element was actually officially reported by the Parliament��s Special Committee on the Poso Conflict in a Parliament session on June 28, 2005. The committee stated that: ��Corruption is the cause of the disturbances and violence in Poso, and it is also closely related to the acts of terror that happened after the Malino agreement��. |
It is similar to the way that we portray religious violence in other parts of the world, because it is easier to do this than look at the problems that exist beneath the religious struggle....
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There are a number of views on what caused the Poso conflict. To this day, most media describe the conflict in three periods. The first occurred in December 1998 where two men of different beliefs clashed during a sub-district head election. The second period was in April 2000 where again two men of different beliefs fought, followed by shootings and burnings of hundreds of houses and two churches. The third period occurred just one month after the second in May 2000. This time, the clash was sparked by rumors that Christian groups were organizing themselves to retaliate to the perpetrators of the second period conflict. The authority backed out, leaving Poso a killing field. This third period clash was the worst, causing so much damage and lost of lives. Killings were everywhere. Refugees flocked all over Sulawesi and other places.
Some other views added a fourth period of clashes where killings continued even after the Malino peace agreement in December 2001. The NGOs blame corruption as the main cause of the violence as various parties were trying to get a tap on the large refugee fund.
So, the conflict between 1998 to 2001 can be categorized as a conflict of economic interests that involved and sacrificed the community of Poso, while the post 2001 conflict is more sophisticated, involving high level political elites which was carried out by the professionals (and/or trained militias) by sacrificing the Poso people. The President has simplified such complex conflict. |
From Human Rights Watch:
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| On December 24, 1998, a young Protestant in the town of Poso in Central Sulawesi province, Indonesia, stabbed a Muslim in the arm. Fighting broke out around town, and a spiral of violence was unleashed. The Poso region proved fertile ground for communal violence: underlying economic, ethnic, and religious tensions were soon compounded by the actions of political rivals, some of whom encouraged and exploited the violence |
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