| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: America's Secret Prisons |
 |
|
I spotted this in the Economist political summary but have yet to read more ...
| Quote: |
| The Washington Post revealed that the CIA operates a system of secret prisons for al-Qaeda suspects in eight countries in Asia and eastern Europe. The administration refused to confirm the prisons' existence but insisted that torture was not allowed at them. |
As Eamo/Dan Dare says "This calls for closer investigation". |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
EU to investigate allegations of CIA jails
| Quote: |
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Union and the continent's top human rights group said Thursday they will investigate allegations the CIA set up secret jails in eastern Europe and elsewhere to interrogate terror suspects, and the Red Cross demanded access to any prisoners.
Human Rights Watch said it has evidence, based on flight logs, that indicate the CIA transported suspects captured in Afghanistan to Poland and Romania. But the two countries and others in the former Soviet bloc denied the allegations. U.S. officials have refused to confirm or deny the claims. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Build secret prisons, then refuse to admit that they exist but insist that there is no torture going on in them?
Even the most neutral-minded person can see that's b.s. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Let Freedom Ring! The greatest democracy in the world my a**! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, that's perhaps the saddest thing about USA since early 2002.
I had always admired the USA for its high moral stance on so many issues - basic deocracy, human rights, rights of the individual, yeah, even its apparent naivete in believing that such values could be desirable and would be desired everywhere. I admired too its support of Free Trade, international organisations and and defence of the underdog against aggressors. I think I was right to admire those things.
Let me be right again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
well... you have to fight international terrorism in an effective way.
The freedoms of the west don't apply to those who are seeking to overthrow them by violent means.
So go ahead...if torturing some terrorist will help save the lives of a few innocent people I'm all for it. I couldn't care less. No pity for all the jihadists in straight jackets in guantanamo or wherever.
You're talking about people who'd be quite happy to kill you. Why grant them the same rights as a law-abiding, peaceful citizen? There is no reasoning with such people..all they understand is strength and weakness. Force is the only way to stop them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rapier wrote: |
well... you have to fight international terrorism in an effective way.
The freedoms of the west don't apply to those who are seeking to overthrow them by violent means.
So go ahead...if torturing some terrorist will help save the lives of a few innocent people I'm all for it. I couldn't care less. No pity for all the jihadists in straight jackets in guantanamo or wherever.
You're talking about people who'd be quite happy to kill you. Why grant them the same rights as a law-abiding, peaceful citizen? There is no reasoning with such people..all they understand is strength and weakness. Force is the only way to stop them. |
There is a good reason for the principle of rights, the first one that comes to mind is the need for due process based on the concept of innocent until proven guilty.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| As Andrew Sullivan notes, we are picking some interesting places to do our torture in terms of symbolism. Saddam's most infamous prison? Check. Guantanamo Bay, nestled right next to the last Communist dictatorship in the western hemisphere? Check. A slew of former East Bloc nations, where many citizens were tortured by their Soviet puppet governments? Check. Right in the heart of many Muslim nations that still torture their citizens? Check. Perhaps we can rent space at Tuol Sleng or Dachau. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riley
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: where creditors can find me
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Rapier,
What makes Western Democracies different and better?
It's the idea that individuals have basic human rights, all individuals.
No, I don't like these extremists, but there is something wrong when we use the same methods.
What will happen to my country when we use these methods?
Looking at history, during the 100 Years War, English companies were allowed to pillage and loot French lands. Later, when they came back to England, that happened in England also because that was what they felt was normal.
When the government and intelligence agencies are finished with this, they could be too accustomed to immoral activities. Then how will they deal with dissent in the U.S?
The other point is that when we claim the moral high ground, we are held accountable to that. The biggest reason there have been so many people angry at us could be that we say one thing but then are willing to do immoral/unethical activities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Let Freedom Ring! The greatest democracy in the world my a**!
|
Octavius Hite: If you want people to listen to you and maybe even respect you, you should take a leaf out of Wangja's book. When you have a legitimate criticism, here is a very good example of how to present it:
| Quote: |
Yeah, that's perhaps the saddest thing about USA since early 2002.
I had always admired the USA for its high moral stance on so many issues - basic deocracy, human rights, rights of the individual, yeah, even its apparent naivete in believing that such values could be desirable and would be desired everywhere. I admired too its support of Free Trade, international organisations and and defence of the underdog against aggressors. I think I was right to admire those things.
Let me be right again. |
There is a whole world of difference between fair criticism and bigotry. Too bad you didn't learn that in school. Educated people consider bigotry unacceptable in themselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
funplanet
Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Location: The new Bucheon!
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wangja...you'll be right to feel those things once Bush is gone...... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hater Depot wrote: |
EU to investigate allegations of CIA jails
| Quote: |
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Union and the continent's top human rights group said Thursday they will investigate allegations the CIA set up secret jails in eastern Europe and elsewhere to interrogate terror suspects, and the Red Cross demanded access to any prisoners.
Human Rights Watch said it has evidence, based on flight logs, that indicate the CIA transported suspects captured in Afghanistan to Poland and Romania. But the two countries and others in the former Soviet bloc denied the allegations. U.S. officials have refused to confirm or deny the claims. |
|
Excellent. Do us Americans a favor, EU, and do just that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
I hope someone launches a 2-year investigation into who leaked the knowledge of these detention centers.
When there are fanatica anxious to kill as many Americans as they can, I'm not going to lose sleep over this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| riley wrote: |
What will happen to my country when we use these methods?
Looking at history, during the 100 Years War, English companies were allowed to pillage and loot French lands. Later, when they came back to England, that happened in England also because that was what they felt was normal. |
plenty of American and british soldiers returned from killing people in WWII without going on to massacre civilians in the street. Even nazi camp concentration guards returned home to be loving husbands and fathers to their families.
We've moved into a new era of international terrorism. you can't fight it like a conventional war.
The safety of the general populace should be the number 1 priority of its govt. Whatever measures necessary to best ensure this, is what must be implemented. If it means shooting a suspect who is likely carrying a nuclear device in his backpack..so be it..ask questions later.
Yes there will be mistakes..but realise what is better for the good of the majority.Waiting for all the evidence to bring a criminal to trial may be too late in many cases.
Different times call for different measures. Freedom is a luxury, you can't always afford it. Peacetime rules are inadequate in a time of war.
Last edited by rapier on Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
