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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| you'd better define "failed" because what you ahve described is a Confucian, caste-based state. Was Korea starving? (And please don't ignore the Japanese invasions, etc.) Had the government ceased to exist? Was there no law and order? Please explain. |
Shortly after the turn of the century Korea's government had ceased to exist. Massive peasant revolts, extensive famine, and abject poverty, made the collapse of monarchial government inevitable. Why do you think the Japanese were invited to Korea? |
When, exactly, do you think the Japanese annexation process began? What you are saying here is just bizarre. Would you please cite your sources?
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| And what is this slavery you talk of? Is it anything like the 30% of Americans who live in poverty/month-to-month while the wealth gap grows ever wider? Might want to consider relativity into your arguments. |
That anology is shockingly inappropriate. Well over 50% of Koreans were slaves subject to attrocious treatment. They were deprived of an education, subject to summary execution for minor offences, and they were even barred from using polite forms of Korean because they were considered less than human. |
Again, definitions, please. And sources. Korea had a feudal/caste-ish system, not a system of slavery. And what you describe existed in the US at the same time, essentially. Was the US a collapsed society? Anyway, virtually everything you are claiming I have not rad or heard before. I am happy to be enlightened, so cources, please. We cannot continue this discussion otherwise because I'd sweaqr you're just making this up. I have read several histories of Korea and most of the perspective you claim wasn't mentioned.
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| Have you no clue whatsoever? I actually have had at least one student who spoke Japanese better than Korea. Guess why? |
Koreans often chose to learn Japanese for the same reasons they learn English today. Most Koreans were deperate to learn Japanese because it furthered their prospects. In fact, many of them wanted to learn Japanese so they could live and work in Japan. Only the diehard nationalists opposed it. Even then, Korean wasn't banned, and the use of Japanese was even initially discouraged by the Japanese authorities. |
Again, cite your sources.
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| Thanks for repeating yourself. This time please explain. |
I repeated myself because you misquoted me. Don't throw the toys out of the pram just because you made a blunder. I have already refered to the fact that Kim Il Sung believed elections in the south would give him a better chance of unifying the country on his terms. This is especially true with regards to the early 1980s. North Korean agents were infultrating left wing groups at the time. |
You're serious? He wanted elections because a democratic Korea would help him? Do tell. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: Re: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Shortly after the turn of the century Korea's government had ceased to exist. Massive peasant revolts, extensive famine, and abject poverty, made the collapse of monarchial government inevitable. Why do you think the Japanese were invited to Korea? |
So they sent a delegation to Japan to say 'We are no longer capable of governing ourselves. We humbly ask that you assume this responsibility for us." And Japan said 'Well, alright, just this once...but remember you owe us a favour ok?'.
Or alternatively perhaps the Japanese 'were invited' in to provide a cover of legitimacy for their takeover and a diplomatic argument against rival powers who might dispute their claim to Korea. Amazing that this cover still seems to work 95 years later.
Look I'm not saying the Japanese came in like pirates and just looted the place (I mean, they'd already done that in 1592). Clearly they were very important in developing the country and their rule needs to be looked at over the entirety of its 35 years. But I think the way you present the facts leaves them open to gross misinterpretation. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Shortly after the turn of the century Korea's government had ceased to exist. Massive peasant revolts, extensive famine, and abject poverty, made the collapse of monarchial government inevitable. Why do you think the Japanese were invited to Korea? |
So they sent a delegation to Japan to say 'We are no longer capable of governing ourselves. We humbly ask that you assume this responsibility for us." And Japan said 'Well, alright, just this once...but remember you owe us a favour ok?'.
Or alternatively perhaps the Japanese 'were invited' in to provide a cover of legitimacy for their takeover and a diplomatic argument against rival powers who might dispute their claim to Korea. Amazing that this cover still seems to work 95 years later.
Look I'm not saying the Japanese came in like pirates and just looted the place (I mean, they'd already done that in 1592). Clearly they were very important in developing the country and their rule needs to be looked at over the entirety of its 35 years. But I think the way you present the facts leaves them open to gross misinterpretation. |
actually, his statement of the "facts" is nothing more than the Japanese version of events. Fact is, the Japanese were not invited in to do anything. The Korean government had not collapsed, but was under severe pressure due to the machinations of Japan. Given they had no ally, there was little they could do except fight or give in. They did resist and the Japanese dethroned the king and installed his son on the throne.
Collapsed? BS. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're serious? He wanted elections because a democratic Korea would help him? Do tell. |
Kim Il Sung had agents sent south of the border. Their job was to infiltrate leftists groups, and encourage anti-American sentiment. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out why. |
Why don't you enlighten me. I fail to see the connection, unless you are saying "leftists" made up a majority of the electorate in the South. Seems highly doubtful. As for my sources, what is wrong with them? Sorry, I was only looking for info that explained my stance, not the best info as I already know the history and was providing it for others who may not. My books on Korea are all back in the States, so can't quote them directly. However, I have read nothing that contradicts my understanding of the process by which Korea was annexed. All sources, both Korean and foreign, save Japanese accounts, match the facts. The Japanese accoutns neither jive with the facts nor make logical sense.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=37084&highlight=japan |
The above link has nothing to do with this thread.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=36367&highlight=japan |
This thread is too long for me to go through just now, but will try to later. Regardless, the one post I saw of yours was pretty much skewed to the Japanese take.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=34972&highlight=japan |
The above thread is also irrelevant to this thread, but there is another post by you making excuses for Japan.
I think I see where this is going, so let me save us both a lot of trouble: if you think the annexation of Korea was 1. voluntary or 2. due to the "collapse" of the Korean government, you are seriously deluded. 'Nuff said. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I can tell, that link you copied wasn't one of the ones that Gwangjuboy posted. Perhaps he edited it out after posting? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
As far as I can tell, that link you copied wasn't one of the ones that Gwangjuboy posted. Perhaps he edited it out after posting? |
Don't know. I did a simple quote function... |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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We have not been discussing the occupation, we ahve been discussing the process by which it happened. That is why they are irrelevant. At least as far as I've read them thus far.
Trying to shift the subject for some reason? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
We have not been discussing the occupation, we ahve been discussing the process by which it happened. That is why they are irrelevant. At least as far as I've read them thus far.
Trying to shift the subject for some reason? |
Not at all. Most of the threads deal directly with the process by which it happened. One of them also highlights a Korean appeal to have the annexation of Korea declared illegal by the international community before World War Two. I don't think you will like the result. Also, make sure you read the accounts of what Korea was like before Japan showed up and improved the lives of most Koreans. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| As far as I can tell, that link you copied wasn't one of the ones that Gwangjuboy posted. Perhaps he edited it out after posting? |
I put my hand up. I linked the wrong thread by mistake. EFLtrainer must have got in before I had time to fix the error. [/u] |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
We have not been discussing the occupation, we ahve been discussing the process by which it happened. That is why they are irrelevant. At least as far as I've read them thus far.
Trying to shift the subject for some reason? |
Not at all. Most of the threads deal directly with the process by which it happened. One of them also highlights a Korean appeal to have the annexation of Korea declared illegal by the international community before World War Two. I don't think you will like the result. Also, make sure you read the accounts of what Korea was like before Japan showed up and improved the lives of most Koreans. |
I'm familiar with some of what you quote above. I participated, I believe. But I will try to find time to read through. Bear in mind: all things are relative. Even if one concluded that Japan modernized Korea, etc., there are other issues at hand. And for most people *nothing* is worth their right to self-determination. Nothing. That is where virtually any justification you could come up with falls on its face. Second, saying that A happened, then B happened is fine. But you cannot also conclude C would not have. In other words, who is to say Korea would not have achieved what they have without Japan's intervention? And why not even faster given there likely would never have been a Korean War?
These are purely logical arguments, not discussions based in the historical issues, so I post them. I'll try to look through the other threads before continuing. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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So the South considers the North to be its brothers, while the US is considered just a friend. That's fine as far as it goes.
But imagine your brother is a jobless good-for-nothing who beats the crap out of his wife and kids, then keeps hitting you up for money which you know he'll just spend on beer instead of food for them. But you do it because you figure it's better than nothing, and he might get violent with you if you don't, and, you know, he's your brother.
Your richer, tougher friend also sometimes gives your brother money -- in fact your brother wants more from him than you. Your friend also tells your brother to get lost when he threatens you. But you're a pretty proud guy, and you start to resent the fact that you need your friend to help you deal with your brother. And when your friend reminds you that your brother should get a job and stop beating the crap out of his wife and kids, you get really pissed off at him, because even though you know it's true you don't want to hear it. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but don't forget that this brother can also be a charmer at times. Every once in a while his eyes clear, he sits back with a wistful expression, and says:
"You know, every once in a while I just think, what if things aren't as complex as I make them? Maybe I should just give it up, relax a little and let things slide. Isn't that what you do? I don't know if I agree with the way you live but every once in a while I think, brother, that maybe you've got a few things to teach me as well."
And good brother thinks YES! Please let him be sane this time, okay, one more chance. Just for you brother.
Followed by relapse of course.
Here is South Korea:
Oh Raist, er, Jong-il, you'll put the white robes on someday. I believe it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramon_Majere |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote:
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| Americans know it's in their interest for the troops to be here... |
and that would be what?
The only real benefit that the US gets out of keeping US forces in Korea is that some believe that it would stop a arms race between Korea and Japan.
There has been a few who proposed that if Kim Il Sung had ruled the entire country that he would have not been able to keep power. Well no one forget that Stalin & Mao controlled much larger and more ethnicaly diverse nations than Korea in check without much difficulty. And of course Kim Il Sung was far more oppressive and cruel than any South Korean leader.
One more thing without the US there would have been no Korean economic miracle and probably no Korean democracy.Protection by the US allowed Korea to spend much less on their military than they otherwise would have and more than than that it made it possible for South Korea to survive. To those who say the US has not been an obstacle to reunification. What exactly has the US done to slow it down or stop it?
Indeed the wasn't North Korea secretly violating its part of the nuclear agreement while the US was being nice to it?
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