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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| just don't know any people who have found Hagwons to work at that put educational standards above profit. As a professional teacher the quality of education has to be my primary concern, not just how easy the job is for me. |
Your intentions are noble, but unfortunately intentions don't necessarily mean you'll get sufficient results. You can't say that you can teach 40 people to speak English better than you can teach 5 students to speak English.
40 students. Give me a break. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Teaching 40 students at a time for one hour per week is like throwing water on a fire with a thimble. You might be really good at it, but it's still basically useless.
Oh yeah. The pay and vacation are really good. And I thought hogwan owners were supposed to be the greedy ones. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Are any public schools desperate enough to hire a teacher from abroad? I tired to apply to one public school but I was told I needed to be in Korea. I don't want to work at a hagwon. I want my summers off to travel. I can make enough money teaching and trading stocks on the side that I don't need to teach 12 months a year. I need time to spend that money. |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I'd be bored to tears teaching at a public school if I was there all day and only teaching half the day. I don't need half a day, every day, to make lesson plans and do paper work. You really don't know what obstacles you're going to run into every day so I don't really understand the whole weekly and or monthly lesson plan thing. You can plan on what you're going to teach and make an exagerated estimate on how long it will take. I suppose with a class of 40 you'd have to make plans because it's virtually impossilbe to naturally teach a language to 40 students at once that you see once a week. How can you check everything? You can't.
I don't know where people get the idea that hagwon teachers are just fooling around and being clowns. Maybe ten years ago. That's not the case now. At least not where I am. Of course owners are in it for the money, but education is an important factor for the parents and for the hagwon to make money. |
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CrazyMonkey
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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double posting
Last edited by CrazyMonkey on Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CrazyMonkey
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jacl wrote: |
| Quote: |
| just don't know any people who have found Hagwons to work at that put educational standards above profit. As a professional teacher the quality of education has to be my primary concern, not just how easy the job is for me. |
Your intentions are noble, but unfortunately intentions don't necessarily mean you'll get sufficient results. You can't say that you can teach 40 people to speak English better than you can teach 5 students to speak English.
40 students. Give me a break. |
If you will read my post carefully I did not say that you can teach 40 students better than 5, so stop misquoting me, I said you can teach 40 as well as 15. In public school the foreign teachers only teach conversational English, there is no paperwork or grading, at least in my case. The students have separate grammar classes with Korean English teachers. If you get the students excited to be speaking English for most of a class period and introduce a few new vocabulary words, how is that not being an effective teacher? You are right about one thing: my "good intentions" are not getting results for me, it is teaching practices taught to me by much older and wiser teachers than I that are producing what I would consider more than sufficient results.
Let me clarify this one more time. Teaching 40 is different and more difficult than teaching smaller groups but it is possible to to create a positive learning environment with larger groups so that the students can be just as motivated to learn as in a small group. If you teach from a teacher centered method, then I totally agree that teaching 40 is almost a waste of time, it is only with a student centered approach that large class size doesn't become too much of a hindrance. In the end it is the teacher's ability to generate interest in learning in the students that decides how much the students learn, not just what the class size is. Once there is a sincere interest from the students one merely needs to tap into that interest with fun and educational activities (thus the need for lesson planning to ensure a variety of activities and backup plans).
Also, I am not sure why you think that I was suggesting that all Hagwon teachers are fooling around. I said that because I am a professional teacher my concern is the educational quality of my students, and I have felt that public school has been more concerned with dynamic education than my previous Hagwon or the Hagwons that most of my friends work for. I know many good teachers that work at Hagwons, but the ones that are serious about teaching choose their Hagwons carefully, as I am sure you did Jacl since you appear to have found a good one (I am not being sarcastic or belligerent). But since you did bring up the topic of Hagwon teachers "fooling around", I think one must admit that there are a certain amount of people that have come to Korea just because they can't find work that pays so good elsewhere. Most Hagwons will hire anyone with a pretty face regardless of teaching experience or qualifications. There were at least 10 instructors at my last Hagwon that had absolutely no clue about how to teach when they came to Korea. I was one of them. But some don't bother to learn how to teach from experienced teachers, and reading up on the latest learning theories, brain research, and teaching techniques. I just think that someone who is serious about teaching should constantly be learning more about how to become a more effective teacher. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
Oh boy! Public shools! 30 to 40 students! What a joy!
Debate over. |
Naw.
The power of being a grade giver can't be beat. I really hope I never teach kids again, but if I found myself leaving the university for whatever reason (and it would have to be a *beep* of a reason), it'd be straight to a public school. |
Hagwons pay so well though. Especially if you have experience and the know how. |
What is "so well"? Public schools pay for experience and credentials. Hakwons don't. Of course there ARE a very few expections but they are VERY few. My public school job pays a lot more than my hakwons ever did. Not to mention you have far few classes so that you can prepare properly. 10-13 hours of teaching per week, as opposed to 25-30. With that low workload, you have plenty of time to prepare a good and entertaining lesson be it 10 or 40 students (my biggest is 22 2nd graders). |
10 to 13 teacing hours, eh. What does that pay? 2 million? 2.1? Something *beep* like that to do all the paperwork and be there all day? |
2.4 million. And I don't do any paperwork. The lesson plans are pre-prepared for me, as they are for the other teachers in the same program. |
That's a good salary. Are taxes about 65,000? What do you clear after all deductions?
You only teach a couple of classes a day? Seems too good to be true. That would be a good job just hanging around drinking coffee all day. How many different classes are included in you 10 to 13 hours/week? Why wouldn't you know if it's 10, 11, 12, or 13 hours? |
Okay here's the thing. I am supposed to teach 22 40 minute classes a week, but in actuality I only teach about 21 since the teachers in the teachers' class are generally too busy to attend. 21*40=13*60 13 hours a week. At a public school there are a lot of field trips and special events days. Which brings us to the 10 hours a week thing. Plus there are other teachers at other public schools I know who teach as little as 10 hours in a ordinary week.
As for what I clear it's just a little over 2.2 million. And if I wanted more all I'd have to do is ask for more classes. |
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CrazyMonkey
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Oh yeah. The pay and vacation are really good. And I thought hogwan owners were supposed to be the greedy ones. |
I don't see how this comment was called for. I didn't bring up the topic of pay. Was simply answering a comment that the public schools don't pay well. I accepted the job before I knew how much I would be making because I thought it was a good place to work since everyone seemed so intent on creating a solid English program centered on the students and not on profit (as was the case with my last Hagwon).
I don't see how I am greedy because I got a job that happens to pay well. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
Oh boy! Public shools! 30 to 40 students! What a joy!
Debate over.
Public schools are good for *beep* teachers who can get away with not teaching English quickly and properly.
Ok, that's harsh. But I just think teachers can teach better with a maximum number of students. Hagwons are seen as bad (and justifiably so), but if you can find a good enough one, you have the freedom to and ability to teach more effectively. |
And hakwons are good for teachers who can't teach English at all, so they just play Hangman and Bingo.
Aren't sweeping generalizations just so much fun?
A "good" teacher can teach many students. It is the students's reponsibility to learn as well. I guess all those professors at public universities who teach 300 freshman or more in some classes are bad teachers. |
The professors that teach 300 students make a lot more money than you and I.
I doubt I'm going to find a public school job that pays me over 2.5 million. |
I doubt you will find a hakwon job that pays you over 2.5 million either.
See, that's how people can tell when B.S is on these boards. As soon as you have some hakwon teacher bragging that he makes 2.5 or more and doesn't work weekends or do privates then 99.999% of the time that's B.S.
As for a public school job that pays you over 2.5 million, easy enough. Just do some extra classes. Less than 30 will pull you over that mark.
As for the professors making a lot more money that was not my argument. You were saying that people can not teach a class of 30-40 students effectively. So my question and argument was: Are all professors who teach large classes, ineffective teachers? |
I'm not giving you BS. I make 2.55 million/month. I have to teach 33 hours a week for that. I'm under contract for 2.2/month and the rest is OT (untaxed). My day starts at 2:30 and ends at 9 on Wednesdays and Fridays, 10 on Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. In August, I make an extra 1 million for morning classes. Untaxed.
No Saturdays or Sundays.
Is it just as easy as that to teach extra classes at public schools? How's that?
As for professors, they don't enter into the equation when comparing public school jobs to hagwon jobs. You are not a professor. Plus the classes you're talking about where profs teach 300 students are definitely not language learning courses How would the students comprehend? I'm only talking about learning English as a second language.
Do you speak Korean? I'm sure that would help for a larger size class. |
See the reason you are making so much is that you are working illegally (your OT isn't being taxed) But that aside yes it is easier than that to teach extra classes. "How's that?" you ask. It is provided for in the contract. The only trouble you might encounter would be if you worked at a very small public school, where they don't have enough classes, but that seems to be a rare situation indeed.
I can speak some Korean, but I rarely use it in the classroom. If you always explain things in Korean, then the students become lazy because they know that they will hear it in their native language if they wait, so why bother to try and understand? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Teaching 40 students at a time for one hour per week is like throwing water on a fire with a thimble. You might be really good at it, but it's still basically useless.
Oh yeah. The pay and vacation are really good. And I thought hogwan owners were supposed to be the greedy ones. |
My biggest class is 22 (not sure where you are getting this 40 from  )
And I teach most classes twice a week not once. It all depends on how good a teacher you are and how interesting and engaging you make your classes. With only 13 hours of teaching a week I have a lot of time to prepare such classes. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how teaching 40 is like using a thimble full of water to put out a fire - if it's a good environment, it's more like throwing 40 modest buckets at 40 fires and hitting about 30 of them. As opposed to hogwan, where you're often throwing nothing but hot air.
Today is Saturday but I came in anyways because I want to do some work with two students (and check my email and fart around on Dave's) who are working on a skit for a speaking competition. I'll have an hour during last block to work with two great, keen students on something they really want to do. At my old hogwan I would *never* have come in on my own time and I highly doubt that any students would want to meet up to do extra work with me. It's just such a different world.
Since I got here 30 minutes ago a cup of English tea, a box of cookies, and a Vitamin C drink have arrived on my desk. The respect level here is just infinitely higher. The PE teacher, of all people, got another teacher to translate for him that he thinks I'm a 'real teacher' (at least that's how it came out in tranlation) this morning. In contrast, I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with one of my ex-hogwan coworkers last night convincing her not to worry a bit about what wonjongnim-babo thinks because he's a scumbag with shit for brains and she should just gather up the dignity to tell him flat out she's not putting up with it any more.
I'm not saying they're aren't good hogwans or bad public schools, but the chance to be a teacher rather than a clown and make at least a small impact on a lot of young people is infinitely higher at a real school. |
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CrazyMonkey
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Teaching 40 students at a time for one hour per week is like throwing water on a fire with a thimble. You might be really good at it, but it's still basically useless.
Oh yeah. The pay and vacation are really good. And I thought hogwan owners were supposed to be the greedy ones. |
My biggest class is 22 (not sure where you are getting this 40 from )
And I teach most classes twice a week not once. It all depends on how good a teacher you are and how interesting and engaging you make your classes. With only 13 hours of teaching a week I have a lot of time to prepare such classes. |
I'm not that lucky, but my biggest class is 36, and most are around 33 or 34. Two other public teachers I know have an average of around 30 (some being around 34 and some around 25). |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
Oh boy! Public shools! 30 to 40 students! What a joy!
Debate over.
Public schools are good for *beep* teachers who can get away with not teaching English quickly and properly.
Ok, that's harsh. But I just think teachers can teach better with a maximum number of students. Hagwons are seen as bad (and justifiably so), but if you can find a good enough one, you have the freedom to and ability to teach more effectively. |
And hakwons are good for teachers who can't teach English at all, so they just play Hangman and Bingo.
Aren't sweeping generalizations just so much fun?
A "good" teacher can teach many students. It is the students's reponsibility to learn as well. I guess all those professors at public universities who teach 300 freshman or more in some classes are bad teachers. |
The professors that teach 300 students make a lot more money than you and I.
I doubt I'm going to find a public school job that pays me over 2.5 million. |
I doubt you will find a hakwon job that pays you over 2.5 million either.
See, that's how people can tell when B.S is on these boards. As soon as you have some hakwon teacher bragging that he makes 2.5 or more and doesn't work weekends or do privates then 99.999% of the time that's B.S.
As for a public school job that pays you over 2.5 million, easy enough. Just do some extra classes. Less than 30 will pull you over that mark.
As for the professors making a lot more money that was not my argument. You were saying that people can not teach a class of 30-40 students effectively. So my question and argument was: Are all professors who teach large classes, ineffective teachers? |
I'm not giving you BS. I make 2.55 million/month. I have to teach 33 hours a week for that. I'm under contract for 2.2/month and the rest is OT (untaxed). My day starts at 2:30 and ends at 9 on Wednesdays and Fridays, 10 on Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. In August, I make an extra 1 million for morning classes. Untaxed.
No Saturdays or Sundays.
Is it just as easy as that to teach extra classes at public schools? How's that?
As for professors, they don't enter into the equation when comparing public school jobs to hagwon jobs. You are not a professor. Plus the classes you're talking about where profs teach 300 students are definitely not language learning courses How would the students comprehend? I'm only talking about learning English as a second language.
Do you speak Korean? I'm sure that would help for a larger size class. |
See the reason you are making so much is that you are working illegally (your OT isn't being taxed) But that aside yes it is easier than that to teach extra classes. "How's that?" you ask. It is provided for in the contract. The only trouble you might encounter would be if you worked at a very small public school, where they don't have enough classes, but that seems to be a rare situation indeed.
I can speak some Korean, but I rarely use it in the classroom. If you always explain things in Korean, then the students become lazy because they know that they will hear it in their native language if they wait, so why bother to try and understand? |
Oh yeah. I better watch my back.  If he doesn't want to tax me for this extra work, should I complain? I don't think so. He pays my salary and deducts taxes. There is no worry for me. C'mon.
I find using Korean speeds the learning process. That depends on many things though. Too many to talk about here. I'll just say that I was in French immersion when I went to school and speaking English was not allowed. Teachers didn't speak any English to us at all. That was a good thing. But they had us all day, not one to three hours/week.  |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| jacl wrote: |
Oh boy! Public shools! 30 to 40 students! What a joy!
Debate over. |
Naw.
The power of being a grade giver can't be beat. I really hope I never teach kids again, but if I found myself leaving the university for whatever reason (and it would have to be a *beep* of a reason), it'd be straight to a public school. |
Hagwons pay so well though. Especially if you have experience and the know how. |
What is "so well"? Public schools pay for experience and credentials. Hakwons don't. Of course there ARE a very few expections but they are VERY few. My public school job pays a lot more than my hakwons ever did. Not to mention you have far few classes so that you can prepare properly. 10-13 hours of teaching per week, as opposed to 25-30. With that low workload, you have plenty of time to prepare a good and entertaining lesson be it 10 or 40 students (my biggest is 22 2nd graders). |
10 to 13 teacing hours, eh. What does that pay? 2 million? 2.1? Something *beep* like that to do all the paperwork and be there all day? |
2.4 million. And I don't do any paperwork. The lesson plans are pre-prepared for me, as they are for the other teachers in the same program. |
That's a good salary. Are taxes about 65,000? What do you clear after all deductions?
You only teach a couple of classes a day? Seems too good to be true. That would be a good job just hanging around drinking coffee all day. How many different classes are included in you 10 to 13 hours/week? Why wouldn't you know if it's 10, 11, 12, or 13 hours? |
Okay here's the thing. I am supposed to teach 22 40 minute classes a week, but in actuality I only teach about 21 since the teachers in the teachers' class are generally too busy to attend. 21*40=13*60 13 hours a week. At a public school there are a lot of field trips and special events days. Which brings us to the 10 hours a week thing. Plus there are other teachers at other public schools I know who teach as little as 10 hours in a ordinary week.
As for what I clear it's just a little over 2.2 million. And if I wanted more all I'd have to do is ask for more classes. |
So, students get two 40-minute classes a week. My students with class sizes ranging from 2 to 9 who get 3 to 4.5 hours/week learn a lot more English than any student in any of your 22-student classes.
Last edited by jacl on Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I've avoided posting on this thread because I don't teach in a hagwon or or a public school, but the debate on hours is kind of fucked.
It takes thousands of hours to learn English and both school and hagwons, even with students going full out, will not get enough hours in either to make a huge difference in their language ability. Both are an important component to language learning, but without a whole lot of other time neither adds up to much alone. |
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