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Hogwans vs. Public School jobs.
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bourquetheman



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I've been at a public high school for 2 years now, and while the hours are fine the vacation time sucks. Two weeks a year is a joke, as in my first year it was 4 weeks but in the second year they said it was a mistake giving me four as they had to follow the Kyunggi-do board of education rules and that two weeks was the max. My class size has been around 33 and I teach 15 classes once a week. It would be better to see fewer classes more often in my opinion.
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_beaver wrote:
I've avoided posting on this thread because I don't teach in a hagwon or or a public school, but the debate on hours is kind of *beep*.

It takes thousands of hours to learn English and both school and hagwons, even with students going full out, will not get enough hours in either to make a huge difference in their language ability. Both are an important component to language learning, but without a whole lot of other time neither adds up to much alone.


Well, that's not exactly true. They do learn quite a bit of English.

I'll agree that time is money. Time you spend at your job, whether you're doing work or not, is time. A previous poster said he teaches 13 hours a week (but when I do the calculations it's 14 hours). Whatever. Is this person at work 13 hours/week. I don't think so. 9 to 5 is a 40-hour week.

I like to think logically. Yes, you're quite right. These kids don't get enough time to learn English in the best way. We, as teachers, can only do our best. Time being money being considered, you also have to consider effectiveness. I don't see how one can be more effective teaching larger classes. Lesson plan or no lesson plan.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacl wrote:
[
See the reason you are making so much is that you are working illegally (your OT isn't being taxed) But that aside yes it is easier than that to teach extra classes. "How's that?" you ask. It is provided for in the contract. The only trouble you might encounter would be if you worked at a very small public school, where they don't have enough classes, but that seems to be a rare situation indeed.

I can speak some Korean, but I rarely use it in the classroom. If you always explain things in Korean, then the students become lazy because they know that they will hear it in their native language if they wait, so why bother to try and understand?


Oh yeah. I better watch my back. Rolling Eyes If he doesn't want to tax me for this extra work, should I complain?... :[/quote]

It's not him who is reponsible for taxing you, it's the government. But whatever, just hope you don't get caught.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacl wrote:
[
So, students get two 40-minute classes a week. My students with class sizes ranging from 2 to 9 who get 3 to 4.5 hours/week learn a lot more English than any student in any of your 22-student classes.


More class time does not equate to learning more English. Like Mr. the beaver pointed out, this is not enough to make a significant improvement. And since you have never met my students I don't know how you can say they learn less. I would be willing to stack my students against yours any day of the week. 22 student classes? Where do you get that from? I have one 22 student class and that is my biggest. I also have a 10 student class and a eight student class. Most of my remaining classes are closer to the bottom end than the top.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacl wrote:
the_beaver wrote:
I've avoided posting on this thread because I don't teach in a hagwon or or a public school, but the debate on hours is kind of *beep*.

It takes thousands of hours to learn English and both school and hagwons, even with students going full out, will not get enough hours in either to make a huge difference in their language ability. Both are an important component to language learning, but without a whole lot of other time neither adds up to much alone.


Well, that's not exactly true. They do learn quite a bit of English.

I'll agree that time is money. Time you spend at your job, whether you're doing work or not, is time. A previous poster said he teaches 13 hours a week (but when I do the calculations it's 14 hours). Whatever. Is this person at work 13 hours/week. I don't think so. (1) 9 to 5 is a 40-hour week.

I like to think logically. Yes, you're quite right. These kids don't get enough time to learn English in the best way. We, as teachers, can only do our best. Time being money being considered, you also have to consider effectiveness. (2) I don't see how one can be more effective teaching larger classes. Lesson plan or no lesson plan.


numbers are mine

1. Depends. When I am finished with my classes for the day I can go. I don't have to hang around. That cuts those hours down a lot. Anyway surfing the Internet and having a coffee break is hardly work.

2. I don't see how one can be more effective teaching smaller classes. If you are the only native speaker, you are spreading yourself pretty thin. I know that when I taught hakwons, my voice was pretty much gone by the end of the day. My last classes always got the short end of the stick. I always gave 100% but by the end of the day, that 100%=50% of what I had in the morning. But maybe you've got more energy than me. 35 classes a week would kill my vocal cords. Shocked Shocked
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway how long have you been here? You should know that a hakwon that pays 2.55 is VERY unusual. The average hakwon wage for a month tends to be around 1.9 million to 2.1 million. On average a public school is a safer bet as your wages are paid by the government.
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

1. Depends. When I am finished with my classes for the day I can go. I don't have to hang around. That cuts those hours down a lot. Anyway surfing the Internet and having a coffee break is hardly work.


Thought you had to do lesson plans. Very Happy Anyway, maybe you'll agree with me that it doesn't take a coon's age to do lesson plans. Especially in your case. I would guess the 22-class requires a bit of planning, but if you already have the material, and the know-how, lesson plans are almost non-existant. Anyway, that's another topic I won't get into right now.

Quote:
2. I don't see how one can be more effective teaching smaller classes. If you are the only native speaker, you are spreading yourself pretty thin. I know that when I taught hakwons, my voice was pretty much gone by the end of the day. My last classes always got the short end of the stick. I always gave 100% but by the end of the day, that 100%=50% of what I had in the morning. But maybe you've got more energy than me. 35 classes a week would kill my vocal cords. Shocked Shocked


Can be stressful on the vocal chords. And I smoke. That might hurt them too. I don't do so bad though. I teach at 2:30 so I stay up all night and wake up right before work. Then I'm well rested. And I drink a ton of coffee (what is it with coffee here? - yuck). I don't speak the whole time. I get them to do conversation exercises where each section has 6 to 8 related questions and answers using categorized vocabulary. Student 1 asks student 2 number one, student 2 then asks student 3, etc. Then I repeat the question and answer each time and get the class to repeat after me. So, I'm not speaking the whole time.

How do you mean "spreading myself thin"? Is there more than one native speaker at your school that teaches the same classes as you? There's another native speaker but we don't teach the same classes except for one middle school class that she teaches for half an hour after my hour (50 minutes). We had a "native" speaker who quit a few months ago. He was from "Canada". That's another story ("I go to store buy egg" Rolling Eyes ) My boss has been doing the 1/2 hour sets after each of our classes since then. Now we have a Kyoppo(sp?) starting tomorrow. She lived in London for a long time. I spoke with her briefly. Good English.
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Anyway how long have you been here? You should know that a hakwon that pays 2.55 is VERY unusual. The average hakwon wage for a month tends to be around 1.9 million to 2.1 million. On average a public school is a safer bet as your wages are paid by the government.


I've been here since January. Started my job in March. I was hired at 2.2 million. The rest is OT.
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Karabeara



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Location: The right public school beats a university/unikwon job any day!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried something. Whenever I meet a Korean that speaks decent English, I ask them what it is that helped them learn it. I have now modified my lesson plans to teach what they say. One woman I know is an elementary school teacher. She said that she learned for free with the mormons (she is not mormon now, and never was). She said that they had lots of speaking drills, drills, drills. Practicing past tense sentences, present tense, future tense, and so on. They did not spend the time memorizing lots of vocabulary unless it was directly used in the lesson. They were encouraged to write down and learn the every-day vocabulary they encountered, and study that. Although I meet my classes just once a week, I feel I am having more of an effect because I spent no less than 3 weeks teaching past tense, then 3 weeks teaching future. In their Korean teacher english classes, they waste so much time memorizing (then forgetting) pages of vocabulary they never use. I just want them to speak basic sentences. Now I am making them string the past/present/future sentences together with conjunctions. We have a book that we must teach, but I just blew through that like the waste of time that it was, so I have time for MY lessons.

Although I only meet them once per week, I feel a great sense of accomplishment when my students catch themselves in the middle of saying I GO HOME and change it to I WENT HOME. It may sound stupid, but the fact that they actually recognize the correct tense, and even can use it correctly when they try, makes me feel good.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacl wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:

1. Depends. When I am finished with my classes for the day I can go. I don't have to hang around. That cuts those hours down a lot. Anyway surfing the Internet and having a coffee break is hardly work.


(A)) Thought you had to do lesson plans. Very Happy Anyway, maybe you'll agree with me that it doesn't take a coon's age to do lesson plans. Especially in your case. I would guess the 22-class requires a bit of planning, but if you already have the material, and the know-how, lesson plans are almost non-existant. Anyway, that's another topic I won't get into right now.

Quote:
(B). I don't see how one can be more effective teaching smaller classes. If you are the only native speaker, you are spreading yourself pretty thin. I know that when I taught hakwons, my voice was pretty much gone by the end of the day. My last classes always got the short end of the stick. I always gave 100% but by the end of the day, that 100%=50% of what I had in the morning. But maybe you've got more energy than me. 35 classes a week would kill my vocal cords. Shocked Shocked


Can be stressful on the vocal chords. And I smoke. That might hurt them too. I don't do so bad though. I teach at 2:30 so I stay up all night and wake up right before work. Then I'm well rested. And I drink a ton of coffee (what is it with coffee here? - yuck). I don't speak the whole time. I get them to do conversation exercises where each section has 6 to 8 related questions and answers using categorized vocabulary. Student 1 asks student 2 number one, student 2 then asks student 3, etc. Then I repeat the question and answer each time and get the class to repeat after me. So, I'm not speaking the whole time.

(2) How do you mean "spreading myself thin"? Is there more than one native speaker at your school that teaches the same classes as you? There's another native speaker but we don't teach the same classes except for one middle school class that she teaches for half an hour after my hour (50 minutes). We had a "native" speaker who quit a few months ago. He was from "Canada". That's another story ("I go to store buy egg" Rolling Eyes ) My boss has been doing the 1/2 hour sets after each of our classes since then. Now we have a Kyoppo(sp?) starting tomorrow. She lived in London for a long time. I spoke with her briefly. Good English.


(A) My lesson plans are pre-prepared for me. Literally. What I say, what I do... There are only a few classes where I have to do any sort of lesson planning. The vast majority are already prepared. All I have to do is load them up and hit the print button.

(B) At all my hakwons (except for one) I have been the ONLY native speaker. At my first job, I was the only foreigner in the entire TOWN (population 8000). So that's spreading yourself pretty thin if you are doing all the classes. Especially with intensives (36 classes)
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karabeara wrote:
I tried something. Whenever I meet a Korean that speaks decent English, I ask them what it is that helped them learn it. I have now modified my lesson plans to teach what they say. One woman I know is an elementary school teacher. She said that she learned for free with the mormons (she is not mormon now, and never was). She said that they had lots of speaking drills, drills, drills. Practicing past tense sentences, present tense, future tense, and so on. They did not spend the time memorizing lots of vocabulary unless it was directly used in the lesson. They were encouraged to write down and learn the every-day vocabulary they encountered, and study that. Although I meet my classes just once a week, I feel I am having more of an effect because I spent no less than 3 weeks teaching past tense, then 3 weeks teaching future. In their Korean teacher english classes, they waste so much time memorizing (then forgetting) pages of vocabulary they never use. I just want them to speak basic sentences. Now I am making them string the past/present/future sentences together with conjunctions. We have a book that we must teach, but I just blew through that like the waste of time that it was, so I have time for MY lessons.

Although I only meet them once per week, I feel a great sense of accomplishment when my students catch themselves in the middle of saying I GO HOME and change it to I WENT HOME. It may sound stupid, but the fact that they actually recognize the correct tense, and even can use it correctly when they try, makes me feel good.


Well, that's a totally good method. Gotta go get some groceries. Have to take the farkin' bus. Hate that.
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sonshine20



Joined: 17 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a teacher (in the States), I sure wish there were some evidence that small class size improves learning. There is a small amount of research that supports small class sizes. There is about equal evidence that doesn't. Although common sense would tell you that it MUST help, the overall conclusion is that class size is overshadowed by other variables. The quality of instruction is one of those variables.

Honestly, folks, there is no end to a debate over whether hagwons or public schools are better. It's really okay for some folks to prefer one while others prefer another! It will be influenced by your personal experiences (good/bad hagwons & good/bad schools) and your own values and teaching style.

THAT'S OKAY!!!!!!!
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another variable would be what is being taught. In this case, we're talking about learning English. How often does a student get to speak English in a class of 20 or more where the native speaker/teacher gets to listen to the student's pronunciation and correct them?
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacl, give your head a shake. Youve been here a handful of months & youre all full of yourself how your 'repeat after me' is making some kind of huge difference. As if.
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jacl



Joined: 31 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooh! Burn!
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