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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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 Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| So, are they saying that the ID messenger doesn't have any credentials to speak on evolution? I'd agree on that. |
No, i'm saying the institution of science "has a slight habit" of not addressing contrary data.
Was just reading about a possible problem of the decaying of C14 radioisotopes and their measurements. Scientists did not, and have no addressed that issue yet. Instead, they rely on other techniques.
well, it's their court...let em have at 'er.
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| Sorry, "magic with no evidence of it's existence by a diety with no evidence of it's existence" is not a valid alternative to observed phenomenon in a classroom. |
Guy...whose saying it is. me? the quote i gave?
I'm NOT a proponent of ID...let alone in the classroom. My point (if you'd read a bit more carefully) is that evolution ITSELF is not yet considered a LAW, and while there is a LOT of information supporting the theory, there is data that calls certain presumptions into question.
and that's also what i got from that article i quoted.
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| What the ID fans are claiming is that since I don't know for ertain what makes my nose run, that all biology is wrong and it's time to consider that invisible nose goblins that you cant prove exist live inside my sinuses and their job is to make snot. |
holy $h1te. what happenend homeboy.
"ID fans" aren't trying to "ruin all of biology"; ID (Intelligent "design") is a "theory" about how LIFE BEGAN ON THE PLANET. It does not try to explain the world of today, or the intricate details and processes of life through nose goblins, and such...
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| Intelligent design is this idiotic as a scientific theroy, because it's NOT one. |
uhm...i agree....and next sentence too.
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| Claiming evolution isn't 100% provable DOES NOT act as proof for intelligent design. |
perhaps you were screaming that at someone else because i don't think you said that to me. And yes, i realize that.
Just came accross that you thought evolution is infallible.
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| What I find highly objectionable is this idea that since there are gaps in our knowledge of evolution, it must therefore be suspect. |
I hate to tell you this but that is the nature of science. Tell me though, out of curiousity why it should NOT be held suspect?
I think every scientific theory should be held to at least SOME measure of skepticism. After all, most of our understanding of this world and it's processes are still classified as theories (chromosomal and genetic "theories" abound) because there ARE inconsistencies in what we know.
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| Death came when there was sin |
physiological, geological, impossibility. The "death" the Bible is referring to is the spiritual death of men...not death period.
God, after all, created teh tree of knowledge so it seems a bit erroneous to think that he DIDN'T create death but he DID create one thing that was so full of "death".
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| I know you will come up with lame excuses, but the point of the matter is that the supernatural is more real than the physical. |
To an extent but you seem to be disregarding the possibility that the physical and affect upon itself in ANY way...taking it to too far an extreme.
re: inorganic to organic...curious... |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| A truly powerful god can guide evolution and make it appear entirely natural. I'll take that god over one that is necessarily a cruise ship stage magician if you take a literal interpretation of Genesis. |
God is limited by His word. He cannot lie and he cannot do something that goes against His word.
How can sin and evolution be compatible? When did death come into the picture if you believe in Genesis?
Ok Khyber good post!
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Quote:
So, are they saying that the ID messenger doesn't have any credentials to speak on evolution? I'd agree on that.
No, i'm saying the institution of science "has a slight habit" of not addressing contrary data.
Was just reading about a possible problem of the decaying of C14 radioisotopes and their measurements. Scientists did not, and have no addressed that issue yet. Instead, they rely on other techniques.
well, it's their court...let em have at 'er. |
The inaccuracy of C14 is a big problem with dating finds. I have read that finds can be out to the degree of millions of year. Meaning that one person will have a few million years while another will have it at a couple hundred million years.
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I hate to tell you this but that is the nature of science. Tell me though, out of curiousity why it should NOT be held suspect?
I think every scientific theory should be held to at least SOME measure of skepticism. After all, most of our understanding of this world and it's processes are still classified as theories (chromosomal and genetic "theories" abound) because there ARE inconsistencies in what we know. |
Exactly! It takes greater faith that we came from nothing than to say God created the universe. Science is about repeatability, not about people's opinions.
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| physiological, geological, impossibility. The "death" the Bible is referring to is the spiritual death of men...not death period. |
Why do you think that? When Adam sinned, everything died. All of creation was affected by Adam's choice. I think it is quite plain in the bible. I would like to hear your explanation though...
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| God, after all, created teh tree of knowledge so it seems a bit erroneous to think that he DIDN'T create death but he DID create one thing that was so full of "death". |
This is a great question. This shows the power of knowledge and that our consequences carry authority. Without authority, we wouldn't have to worry about our choices. Fortunately and unfortunately for many, love has the ability to be very powerful. Hitler choose to disregard it and used knowledge for great hatred. MLK used it and turned it into love.
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| To an extent but you seem to be disregarding the possibility that the physical and affect upon itself in ANY way...taking it to too far an extreme. |
To the natural thinking man, I agree. However, when did the spirit of God make sense to man? God is god and we are man. Read through the gospels and watch how many times people didn't understand what He was doing. Even Einstein was limited by his own solution, the theory of relativity. He thought that the universe was infinite, but found that it was indeed finite. He then had to humble that there was indeed a god who affected the universe. He looked towards Buddhism as being the source, but at least he acknowledged the power of the spiritual.
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| re: inorganic to organic...curious... |
Look back in the posts and you will see the discussion Red and I had. It is in regard to the leap from inorganic to organic. I would like to hear you thoughts!  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
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| A truly powerful god can guide evolution and make it appear entirely natural. I'll take that god over one that is necessarily a cruise ship stage magician if you take a literal interpretation of Genesis. |
God is limited by His word. He cannot lie and he cannot do something that goes against His word. |
So your all powerful god is actually limited. So god can't make a rock so big he can't lift it, huh?
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| How can sin and evolution be compatible? When did death come into the picture if you believe in Genesis? |
Errr. How are they not compatible? The Catholic church believes in both. Evolution and sin. No problems in the minds of some of the finest theologians on the planet. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| So your all powerful god is actually limited. So god can't make a rock so big he can't lift it, huh? |
Yeah, the rock of Christ. God cannot lie and He cannot go against His word. This is what makes Him faithful and trustworthy.
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| Errr. How are they not compatible? The Catholic church believes in both. Evolution and sin. No problems in the minds of some of the finest theologians on the planet. |
Good thing that I am not Catholic.
When Adam sinned in the garden it introduced death.
In evolution, death would have happened in the earliest stages of life. Death, is necessary for the natural selection of life.
Right? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
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| Errr. How are they not compatible? The Catholic church believes in both. Evolution and sin. No problems in the minds of some of the finest theologians on the planet. |
Good thing that I am not Catholic. |
My point here is a MAJOR world religion can happily coexist with the notion of sin and death and embrace evolution. Catholics aren't any less moral people than fundaMENTAList christians. Are you suggesting Catholics are all going to go to hell because of what they believe?
| fiveeagles wrote: |
When Adam sinned in the garden it introduced death.
In evolution, death would have happened in the earliest stages of life. Death, is necessary for the natural selection of life.
Right? |
If you want to base your sense of morality on a myth without a single iota of scientific evidence... I'd also direct you to the Flying Spaghetti Monster faith should you get bored of this literalist creed and want another faith based on something someone pulled out of their ass. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| My point here is a MAJOR world religion can happily coexist with the notion of sin and death and embrace evolution. |
I am glad you think that, but explain how.
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| Are you suggesting Catholics are all going to go to hell because of what they believe? |
People go to hell, because they do not believe in Jesus Christ and don't live by love. Many Catholics will be in Heaven. I think this last pope was awesome and the new pope, I have great respect for. I am excited to see how he revamps the Catholic faith.
I was only trying to joke when I said good thing I am not a Catholic. I just went to mass two weeks ago. My wife's father died and her mom is a practising Catholic.
However, there are things that I disagree upon that the Catholics practise. Are these issues of salvation. Some of them are, but we would have to look at each individual case. However, the essentials for Heaven is faith in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and an increasing amount of love.
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| If you want to base your sense of morality on a myth without a single iota of scientific evidence |
I think as I have mentioned in this article more than once. There is more evidence for Christ and Creation than evolution. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
I think as I have mentioned in this article more than once. There is more evidence for Christ and Creation than evolution. |
BAHBAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!! |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Fiveeagles, what do you think of Rapier's claim that Catholics are not Christians? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
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Yeah, I don't know what the hell that lower pic is all about either- I'm hoping somebody can explain it to me.... |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Fiveeagles, what do you think of Rapier's claim that Catholics are not Christians? |
Regardless, if you read a couple of my lasts posts. I comment on what I think of Catholics. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
I think as I have mentioned in this article more than once. There is more evidence for Christ and Creation than evolution. |
BAHBAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!! |
Now that I'm done laughing, 5chickens, you should look at this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
This is a very good, very detailed overview of some of the excellent science behind evolution. It's not 5 guys sitting in a room pulling stuff out of their asses to piss off the Christian right. There's decades of solid genetic, geological, biological, and chemical science underscoring evolution, all published in peer reviewed scientific journals. These scientists make predictions, find data confirming those predictions, and offer what would constitute disproof of their theory. This is the hallmark of good science.
Now, given your continual inability to grasp the difference between cosmology and evolution, I doubt any of this will make sense to you and you'll simply dismiss it.
Now, could you provide me with a good scientific journal that establishes Christ's resurrection? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Fiveeagles, what do you think of Rapier's claim that Catholics are not Christians? |
BTW, bwahahahahaha!!! I love this statement. I have never understood the logic behind it: they believe in Christ, they follow Christ, yet they are not Christian? Goofy. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess I'll bump this thread (since I nominated it for "Thread of the Year") |
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