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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: Will capitalism free North Korea? |
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This guy seems to think so.
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A creeping revolution, both social and economic, is under way in North Korea and it seems there's no turning back. For decades, the country served as the closest possible approximation of an ideal Stalinist state. But the changes in its economy that have taken place after 1990 have transformed the country completely and, perhaps, irreversibly.
[snip]
In North Korea, which for decades was so different, this meant a revolution. The new situation undermined the government's ability to control the populace. People involved in the new market activities are independent from (or inured to) subtle government pressures that had ensured compliance for decades. One cannot promote or demote a vendor, transfer him or her to a better or worse job, nor determine his or her type of residence (though admittedly, most people still live in the houses they received when the old system was still operating). |
Interesting article. I agree with him that the North will collapse from the bottom up, unlike the USSR. I think the best way to help this along is to attach conditions to all humanitarian aid: inspectors to make sure the food goes to people who need it and isn't just used to strengthen the military and reward loyalists. I wish the Seoul government wasn't undermining the World Food Program in this regard. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Will capitalism free North Korea? |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| I wish the Seoul government wasn't undermining the World Food Program in this regard. |
Reward bad behavior, punish good: the Korean way of doing things. Bit like a hagwon.
Suck up to Kim Jong Il, but demonise their proven allies the Americans.
I suppose the age old practise of placating ones enemies and neglecting your friends is an old survival mechanism of the korean nation. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Having just come back from Singapore, I answer:
I doubt it. But maybe there'll be fewer people in labour camps (and more working in sweatshops). |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, heh. Thanks Bobster, I meant to link it but I forgot and then thought I had.  |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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On a general note: while a lot of the more conservative and not-so-conservative pundits like to say pressure from the US led to the collapse of the old USSR, I think it's basically bunk. (But, yes, I am over-simplifying...) The primary cause, it seems to me, was the slow realization that what existed beyond the Iron Curtain was a lot better (in some ways) than what existed behind it. This came from international media, music, V of A, travel on the part of citizens, etc.
There were no tanks at the Berlin Wall. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think its capitalism which will free North Korea so much as freedom of information. In some ways North Korea is like an ecosystem that abhors oxygen, that is trying to sustain itself in an oxygen-rich atmosphere. It's trying to seal off information from the outside, but because information is so ubiquitous (sp?), like a gas, it tends to diffuse into places where it is absent. Every bit, every single molecule, of open information from the outside world that leaks into North Korea is a threat to the current regime. EVERY bit.
The balloon is aging and crumbling, and won't last forever. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Did anyone see the secret footage of North Korea released by CNN last night? Those images were awful. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| No, I missed it and then I missed the repeat showings.. is there any way to watch it online or order a DVD of it? |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| No, I missed it and then I missed the repeat showings.. is there any way to watch it online or order a DVD of it? |
I'm not entirely sure we're talking about the same thing, but I saw footage of a NK dissenter being executed last night.
You can find it on CNN.com |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
On a general note: while a lot of the more conservative and not-so-conservative pundits like to say pressure from the US led to the collapse of the old USSR, I think it's basically bunk. (But, yes, I am over-simplifying...) The primary cause, it seems to me, was the slow realization that what existed beyond the Iron Curtain was a lot better (in some ways) than what existed behind it. This came from international media, music, V of A, travel on the part of citizens, etc.
There were no tanks at the Berlin Wall. |
You are a caricature of what an anti-American would say. You're a parody. I don't say anti-American here because you can't say anything positive about the United States. I don't say anti-American because this was a thread about capitalism and NK and you just have to throw in some unfounded and ridiculous blather to make the US look like less.
I say anti-American because you actually say you are an American when you are obviously not and you are obviously a sock of someone else. Considering how many times you put "eh?" into your posts, I'm going to say that you are probably Canadian. *cough*Daechidong Waygookin*cough*
Pressure from the US didn't lead to the collapse of the USSR? 
Really? What did?
Maybe it was the constant fighting that Bolivia did to prevent Soviet expansion into every corner of the globe. Had Bolivia not stood up to the Soviets every time they became belligerant we might have lost the whole of Europe to communism and, potentially, the world. Thanks, Bolivia!
Maybe it was the luxurious and free way of life that Britain and Djibouti helped spread throughout the world. When Djibouti began to show the world the life of freedom that their citizens enjoyed, the Soviet citizens saw something that they wanted. Thanks Djibouti!
Maybe it was Haiti's constant military improvement that prevented the Soviets from being the premier superpower in the world. Had Haiti not kept ahead of the Soviets in the arms race, they might have tried to actually take over the world. Thanks, Haiti!
Maybe it was the success of capitalism, anchored by the powerful economy of Niger, that showed the communist Soviets that maybe communism wasn't the way to go. When the economy of Niger began to dominate the world's economy back in the 1980's and drive the world into a succesful period while the Soviet economy went in the crapper, the Soviets realized that their government wasn't doing everything to make sure that they were all truly equal. Thanks, Niger!
ELFTrainer...
If you want to keep living in your little fantasy land, you can leave my post as it is.
If you want to know the facts, take out all the bold country names and put in "The United States of America."
P.S. Change socks already. This one stinks. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Well, the NK goverment's real motive behind any reforms is to delay the collapse of their country until after they've all been long dead in order to prevent their capture and trial. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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No, it will make the regime more currupt
Look at China, Vietnam and Laos
"Everything can be done...but money makes things done faster" |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
On a general note: while a lot of the more conservative and not-so-conservative pundits like to say pressure from the US led to the collapse of the old USSR, I think it's basically bunk. (But, yes, I am over-simplifying...) The primary cause, it seems to me, was the slow realization that what existed beyond the Iron Curtain was a lot better (in some ways) than what existed behind it. This came from international media, music, V of A, travel on the part of citizens, etc.
There were no tanks at the Berlin Wall. |
You are a caricature of what an anti-American would say. You're a parody. I don't say anti-American here because you can't say anything positive about the United States. I don't say anti-American because this was a thread about capitalism and NK and you just have to throw in some unfounded and ridiculous blather to make the US look like less.
I say anti-American because you actually say you are an American when you are obviously not and you are obviously a sock of someone else. Considering how many times you put "eh?" into your posts, I'm going to say that you are probably Canadian. *cough*Daechidong Waygookin*cough*
Pressure from the US didn't lead to the collapse of the USSR?
Really? What did?
Maybe it was the constant fighting that Bolivia did to prevent Soviet expansion into every corner of the globe. Had Bolivia not stood up to the Soviets every time they became belligerant we might have lost the whole of Europe to communism and, potentially, the world. Thanks, Bolivia!
Maybe it was the luxurious and free way of life that Britain and Djibouti helped spread throughout the world. When Djibouti began to show the world the life of freedom that their citizens enjoyed, the Soviet citizens saw something that they wanted. Thanks Djibouti!
Maybe it was Haiti's constant military improvement that prevented the Soviets from being the premier superpower in the world. Had Haiti not kept ahead of the Soviets in the arms race, they might have tried to actually take over the world. Thanks, Haiti!
Maybe it was the success of capitalism, anchored by the powerful economy of Niger, that showed the communist Soviets that maybe communism wasn't the way to go. When the economy of Niger began to dominate the world's economy back in the 1980's and drive the world into a succesful period while the Soviet economy went in the crapper, the Soviets realized that their government wasn't doing everything to make sure that they were all truly equal. Thanks, Niger!
ELFTrainer...
If you want to keep living in your little fantasy land, you can leave my post as it is.
If you want to know the facts, take out all the bold country names and put in "The United States of America."
P.S. Change socks already. This one stinks. |
Oh, pliggy... yes, I realize that in your small world - the one inside your label-loving brain - life is simple: America beat Soviet Union! Me Rocky!!! But out here in the real world, we realize that internal change doesn't come primarily from economic sources, but social changes. And those of us that are really smart  realize it is a pretty complex thing, but that American pressure wasn't really the primary mover in bringing down the Communist governments. After all, if that were the case, would China not have fallen, too? And tiny little Cuba? What is keeping that tiny, tiny, tiny nation safe from the US savior?
Every time you try to portray me as anti-American you simply make yourself look like an idiot. Most who know me would accuse me of anything BUT being something other than very much an American. But I realize that doesn't fit with your view of the world that an American must toe the line (completely un-American), blindly support the current administration even in the face of some of the most eggregious acts done in the name of my native country EVER (completely un-American), and throw over my belief in true self-determination for ALL nations and ALL peoples, in liberty, in freedom of choice, in freedom of thought, in freeedom of the pursuit of happiness, in freedom from terror and fear, in freedom from fear that if you don't act american you will be made to suffer (completely un-American)...
It is the cry of the fool who says a quote-unquote liberal is not a patriot. You ever notice us "liberals" don't insult the frigging "conservatives" by trying to deny them their birthright? That's because it's UN-AMERICAN to stifle dissent, and this nation was created from the fires of dissent.
Kiss my rear. |
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