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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Rapier, you really need to work on where your sources are coming from. Seems like you believe all the non objective propanganda you read.
Here are some examples to show the agendas of the above sites.
http://www.islamreview.com/ : "This site is to demonstrate that the fundamental teachings of Islam are incompatible with the Christian faith, and the American way of life."
Clearly no agenda here.
http://www.meforum.org/ : " The Middle East Forum Promoting American interests."
Obviously impartial.
http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/ : "A human rights pressure group, lobbying to protect children's rights and the persecuted church"
Again a Christian biased lobby group.
http://www.copts.net/ : "THE OFFICIAL SITE FOR THE PERSECUTED COPTS IN EGYPT"
No comment required.
How about some legitimate souces Rapier? I am sure some exist if you do enough research.
Here is an interesting article from a reputable source. Its one of the lead stories from today's Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,11374,1642915,00.html
"Britain has become more racially integrated over the past decade, according to research released today which also debunks what it calls "myths" about Muslims choosing to live separately.
The research from Manchester University is at odds with claims by Trevor Phillips, the head of the Commission for Racial Equality, who has said Britain is "sleepwalking to segregation".
The study also says that immigration is not the reason for increased numbers of non-white Britons over the past decade, and that "white flight" from inner cities is another myth.
"
You can read the rest yourself. Big Verne will be on to dispute it in a few minutes as well I am sure.
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Ah...the old "incredible links" trick. Whenever you are losing a debate, simply claim the other persons links are biased/discredited. So easy!
Ok.
Provide me with some links showing Christians are in no way persecuted in Egypt, and that they are held in high regard by the muslims there- a cut above, as you said earlier. that they have a higher standard of living etc.
lets have them.
Or; prove that the mountain of evidence, historical and current factual information relating to the persecution of christians in Egypt is all lies, the work of some madman who enjoys creating websites for the hell of it.
and that several million christians who fled Egypt did so because they didn't like the weather there.
Widespread persecution of christians in the islamic world is a shocking reality that you choose to ignore...perhaps like Yata boy, you'd donate your daughter to the nearest rioting muslim with the reccomendation "She's pretty hot to trot". 
re: your muslim friend with the belgian girlfriend. Ask him what he'd do to his sister if he discovered she had a western boyfriend.
quote : Bucheon bum.
| Quote: |
| As well as Lebanese Christians and Syrian ones as well. |
Situation in Lebanon
The Christians of Lebanon -- Maronites, Orthodox, and other communities including Protestants -- number about 1.5 million, the remnant of a Christian nation that resisted the Islamic conquorers for 13 centuries. Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled. During the Israeli operations in Lebanon in 1978 and in 1982, the Christian Lebanese sided with the Israelis against the Syria-backed Islamic Lebanese. In 1985, the Israelis withdrew except for a security buffer zone exposing the Christians to reprisals. Since 1990, the end of the Lebanese civil war, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation.
Christians in the north and central parts have been systematically politically and socially oppressed since the Lebanese civil war ended. Hundreds have been arrested, tortured, and jailed by pro-Syrian forces. In the south of Lebanon, thousands of Christians are bombarded constantly by Hezbollah. Thousands of Lebanese Christians fled when Israel pulled out of the security zone in 2000. There are more than seven million Lebanese Christians outside of Lebanon, including more than 1.5 million Americans of Lebanese descent.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_christians.php
Situation in Egypt
The largest Christian community of the Middle East is found in Egypt, which has ten to twelve million Copts, a Christian group comprising about 15 - 20% of the country's population. The Coptic Church is an independent church that broke away from the Byzantine Orthodox in the 6th century. Copts were the majority religion in Egypt until at least the 9th century, when it was overtaken by Islam brought by Arab conquerors.
Egypt is torn by strife generated by Islamic opposition to Egypt's official secularism and its ties with the West. Islamic radicals attacked government officials, Copts, tourists and security officers in an insurgency that has killed 1,200 people since the early 1990s.
Egypt is a major recipient of US foreign aid, despite blatant violations of religious freedom which occurs regularly. The Copts require presidential permission to open a church, their history can no longer be taught in schools, and converts to their faith can be arrested under the National Security Act. Few Copts are found in the Egyptian government.
The London Daily Telegraph (woohoo) reported:
... in a single month during 1998, Egyptian police detained about 1,200 Christians in Al-Kosheh, near Luxor in Upper Egypt. Seized in groups of up to 50 at a time, many were nailed to crosses or manacled to doors with their legs tied together. Then they were beaten and tortured with electric shocks to their genitals while police denounced them as "infidels."
However..I'll give you Syria. but the favorable situation there is not due to the generosity of Muslims..
Why is syria a haven for christians?
The combination of two factors has created the relatively happy situation for Christians in Syria. First, the ruling of party of Syria is the Ba��ath. The ideological founder of this party, whose name is Arabic for "rebirth," was Michel Aflaq, a native of Syria and a staunch Christian. The main objectives of the Ba��ath Movement, as envisioned by such thinkers as Aflaq, were secularism, socialism, and pan-Arab unionism. These objectives are summed up in the party slogan, "Unity, Freedom, Socialism."
Two regimes have made use of Aflaq��s ideology, one in Syria and the other in Iraq. Neither has lived up to his dream. Aflaq was both a strident defender of human rights and a tireless champion of the poor. However, both wings of the Ba��ath Party have maintained his relentlessly secularist orientation. It is that ideological umbrella which provides the cover under which Syrian Christianity flourishes today.
In addition to Ba��ath ideology, the ethnic composition of Syria��s ruling elite encourages policies of tolerance. General Hafez al-Assad took control of Syria in a 1970 coup. Assad was an Alawite, a Muslim minority that is despised by Sunni Muslims as heretical. Orthodox Muslims often deride Alawites as "little Christians." As the Alawite liturgy seems to be at least partly Christian in origin, this barb probably contains at least some truth.
Prior to Assad��s coup, Sunni Muslims had ruled Syria for 1,400 years. The new dictator quickly reversed the long-standing pecking order within Syrian society that had kept Sunnis at the top for so long. In the new Syria, Assad organized the religious minorities, including the Christians, into a bulwark against the Sunnis. The Sunnis, to say the least, were somewhat disturbed by this. The Muslim Brotherhood, a fundamentalist Sunni Muslim organization, actually declared a jihad against the Assad regime in 1976, after Syria intervened in the Lebanese Civil War on the side of the Christians. The Assad regime eventually crushed the Brotherhood in 1982, killing over 10,000 Sunnis in their heartland of Hama. Ever since, Muslim fundamentalism has been ruthlessly kept in check.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/chancy4.html
Oh= and please, no more claims of how Arabs created an amazing civilisation based on their superior knowledge:
Syriac Christians Passed Greek Science to the Arabs
http://phoenicia.org/xtiantranslateforarabs.html |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Here is an interesting article from a reputable source. Its one of the lead stories from today's Guardian. |
Right, so the Guardian, a leftwing, liberal newspaper has no agenda and is reputable, whereas websites campaigning for the rights of Christians in the muslim world are baised. By the way, that Guardian article is highly contentious and certainly does not prove anything about whether muslims really are 'integrating', but there's another thread to discuss that.
It is sad that you choose to ignore the persecution of Christians because it does not fit in with your worldview. |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Right, so the Guardian, a leftwing, liberal newspaper has no agenda and is reputable, whereas websites campaigning for the rights of Christians in the muslim world are baised.
It is sad that you choose to ignore the persecution of Christians because it does not fit in with your worldview. |
Did you not use the Guardian yourself as a source in another thread? I think so but I don't have the patience to search for it.
It may be left leaning but it is a reputable source. Not many of their stories have to be removed for inaccuracy and they are closely monitored. Maybe you could give us some examples of what you would consider impartial journalistic sources? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Ah...the old "incredible links" trick. Whenever you are losing a debate, simply claim the other persons links are biased/discredited. So easy! |
I have proof that Lenin is actually Palpatine. Don't try the old "incredible links" trick, it doesn't matter where I got this from!  Don't even ask because I'm wary of that old trick.
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| In Episode III, it is obvious that Palpatine is Lenin and Vader is Stalin because of who is killed. First Palpatine orders Vader and the clone troopers to kill all the Jedi when order 66 is executed. Then Vader is sent to Mustafar to kill the trade federation leaders and the banking clan and the remaining separatists. To say it in Milky Way galaxy terms, first the church is killed (the organized religion), the opiate of the people, the arm of the oppressor, then the capitalists are killed. Only in communist revolutions the church and the capitalists are the bad guys. By these moves of Palpatine, it is obvious that his empire is like that of the former Soviet Union. How you see the death of the Jedi is depending on which side of the fence you are on. If you are a prisoner of the church and are under a war lord, then the death of the Jedi is a symbol of freedom to you; and Vader is a hero. If you are poor in America or poor in any other country for that matter, then when Vader kills all the capitalists again, he is a hero. If you are part of the current regime and like the Jedi and you lord it over everyone, then you are sad to see the Jedi and capital get it. I hate the fact that Obi-Wan gets off scot free until Episode IV. It is too bad America does not have a Palpatine. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:29 am Post subject: |
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http://www.meforum.org/ : " The Middle East Forum Promoting American interests."
Obviously impartial. |
I don't see on what grounds you can decide to ignore it, though. Anyway, what happens when you start vetoing other peoples' links is that people start to ignore yours. Witness Mith's response to Rapier. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Here is something to balance the Egyptian stories
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1209547,00.html
"Hundreds of Muslims have been killed by Christian militia in the latest outbreak of ethnic fighting in the central Nigerian town of Yelwa, a senior police officer said yesterday. "
http://www.christianweek.org/stories/vol18/no16/cwfeature.html
"One estimate of the number of human beings of all nationalities who died prematurely for their faith between 1900 and 2000 is a dismaying 169 million, including: 70 million Muslims; 35 million Christians; 11 million Hindus; 9 million Jews; 4 million Buddhists; 2 million Sikhs and 1 million Baha�is. "
I don't doubt that the Christians are not finding their lives easy in Egypt and some other African countries. My point is that it is not down to the nature of Islam. It is more about greed and power.
Christians are just as guilty as muslims in this regard. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| It may be left leaning but it is a reputable source. Not many of their stories have to be removed for inaccuracy and they are closely monitored. |
Yes, it is largely a reputable source, although it does have an obvious liberal slant. However, I will not automatically discredit things from the Guardian and I find it rather sad that you blithely dismiss links simply because they may do not fit with your worldview. Christian persecution is pretty well documented and is not a right-wing conspiracy to discredit Islam. It is an all too real occurence that is ignored by large sections of the media.
By the way, the Guardian is often inaccurate, as are many newspapers, most of which insist on giving their own 'commentary', or 'analysis' to current events. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Interesting second link: notice how christianity is spreading rapidly in China despite govt persecution. Spread freely by conversion, a matter of personal choice.
On the other hand, islam is usually spread by force."Convert or die".My other observation is that Christian violence is usually prompted by persecution, a case of self-defence. islam on the other hand is an aggressive militant empire, depending on intimidation and violence for its spread.
* Does anybody know- are christian eslteachers barred from certain countries? I know for example Christianity is banned in saudi Arabia- but surely the number of eslers there must contain a few christians? What about those in china? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| My point is that it is not down to the nature of Islam. |
Right, so when a nun is stabbed to death because a play had been performed that defamed Islam, and such defamations often carry the death penalty, this 'has nothing to do with Islam'. When Christians in Pakistan are put in prison for 'defaming' the prophet, this has 'nothing to do with Islam'.
It has everything to do with Islam. The inability to deal with criticism of the religion. The harsh punishments, and often death sentences meted out to 'apostates'. The second class treatment of 'dhimmis'. To say that the ill treatment of religious minorities has nothing to do with Islam betrays a total ignorance of the religion and its teachings.
But keep on spouting the 'it has nothing to do with Islam' line, if it keeps you happy. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| One estimate of the number of human beings of all nationalities who died prematurely for their faith between 1900 and 2000 is a dismaying 169 million, including: 70 million Muslims; 35 million Christians; 11 million Hindus; 9 million Jews; 4 million Buddhists; 2 million Sikhs and 1 million Baha뭝s. " |
Interesting. But we're not trying to stave off a Christian assault on Europe. Nor a Jewish assault. Nor Hindu, nor Buddhist, nor Sikh, etc. |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
notice how christianity is spreading rapidly in China despite govt persecution. Spread freely by conversion, a matter of personal choice.
On the other hand, islam is usually spread by force."Convert or die".
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Have you ever studied the history of Christianity? It has a lot of blood on its hands. At least as much as Islam and possibly more. Have a look at the link below
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/mission.html
I think many of the above were more about territory and control but they were committed in the name of Christianity. It is similar case for Islam.
I am against all organised religion. Human nature will always pervert organised religion. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| ed4444 wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
notice how christianity is spreading rapidly in China despite govt persecution. Spread freely by conversion, a matter of personal choice.
On the other hand, islam is usually spread by force."Convert or die".
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Have you ever studied the history of Christianity? It has a lot of blood on its hands. At least as much as Islam and possibly more. Have a look at the link below
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/mission.html
I think many of the above were more about territory and control but they were committed in the name of Christianity. It is similar case for Islam.
I am against all organised religion. Human nature will always pervert organised religion. |
So, you would oppose a Muslim subjugation of Europe. I'm glad to hear it. If, indeed that is what I am hearing. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Have you ever studied the history of Christianity? It has a lot of blood on its hands. |
Yes, Christianity has a bloody past, but we are talking about what is happening in the world today.
Why do apologists for Islamic intolerance, like yourself, always have to hark back to Christianity's past shortcomings or Islam's hyped-up 'golden age' to absolve the crimes taking place now in the name of Islam?
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| Human nature will always pervert organised religion. |
Yes, but you fail to recognise that the persecution of religious minorities under Islam is not a perversion, but a constant, inherent part of the religion. |
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