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jaganath69

Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote: |
Hogwash. official govt keep-the-peace hogwash. if Muslims in the U.S seem quiet and orderly its because they haven't reached large enough numbers yet. All the same, the ones that are there are a disloyal fifth column.
"we are here, our mission in this country is to change it"
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6146
They work relentlessly to undermine the U.S. struggle to survive in the face of the growing Muslim terrorist threat. The huge Muslim birthrate, Muslim immigration, the massive expansion of Muslim religious and educational institutions that convert Christians to Islam and the purchase of major U.S. companies by Muslim oil sheiks are all also part of their strategy. America's great friend (?), Saudi Arabia, from whose land came fifteen of the nineteen September 11th Arab hijackers has for some time been spear-heading the spread of Islamic doctrine. The Saudis have wholly or partly financed some 210 Islamic Centers, like this one in Boca raton- which openly supports terrorism:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7982
Islamic schools in America are teaching hatred toward American Jews and Christians.
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,46610,00.html
North American colleges and universities have Muslim Student Associations that are epicenters of hatred:
"We are not Americans,We are Muslims."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31571
"We reject the U.N., reject America, reject all law and order. Don't lobby Congress or protest because we don't recognize Congress! The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it!"
Not to mention the accelerating number of mosques going up, muslim schools and welfare centers...slowly extending a network of yet more self-satisfied and separate muslim communities..
http://www.cair-net.org/mosquereport/Number_of_Mosques_Founded.htm
there is no muslim integration in the U.S....just a gradually strengthening outpost of Mecca. |
You've gone and excelled yourself again. Lets take a look at your sources. The worldnetdaily whose comentators include the wonderfully impartial Anne Coulter, Fox News the home of fair and balanced reporting and Frontpagemag, who claim to be a guide to the political left. Sounds like some agendas here.
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Dude I just said that I was quite happy with genuine integration occurring in Britain. What more do you want me to say? "I hope muslims in Britain get given free houses and cars and are bowed to by every white person that crosses their path? get a grip.
If they start marrying british people and not forcing their spouses to be mzlims, (instead of inbreeding with arranged incestuous marriages) then I might give them some slack |
I'm about the last person to advocate state handouts. Again you are obfuscating the argument in your own special way. Take a look at my signature, lifted from a previous post. If I wanted to take this personally, I would be down on you for suggesting that my wife and her family (and me nominally) are all less than human, a seperate species. I won't though because I know you are just another crackpot in the mental asylum that is this forum. Your imbecile bigotted rants are yet another reason why this whole board is seen as the laughing stock of the expat community. You'd cringe if you know what people elsewhere said about you. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Jaganath...
You can't silence all open debate by taking offence. I know its a muslim habit, but we're in a free country now, and no hands are dismembered for a slip of the tongue.
Why have 3 generations of muslims in England refused to mingle and marry into British culture?
Why would they rather marry their own sisters than so much as date a British person? And why would they kill their own daughters for doing so? Is this natural?
Even back in Africa...the whites interbred with blacks to a fairly high degree. But Muslims remained separate..not socialising with either...importing wives and husbands to swell their ranks. A bit like in Britain. They import spouses. Their life aims amount to making lots of money with their overpriced/extortionate shops and stores.
I knew a certain muslim girl back in Africa. Ultimately she had to flee the country- not because of Mugabe or even war. No. Her own father swore to kill her after she told him she wouldn't marry the guy he'd procured, and that she wanted to wear in jeans and a T-shirt rather than dress like a christmas tree. We took her in for a while, she was literally in hiding for her life. I saw many Muslim social problems over the years, as my father was a social worker/welfare administratorfor the province. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
It's still much higher than Indians, and far, far higher than Pakistanis. |
But that wasn't the point we were arguing.
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Going shopping or going to the same restaurant hardly counts as 'daily contact' and certainly not integration. It is certainly not a basis for developing relationships or friendships, and it is these which break barriers down. |
For the older generations, meeting people whilst shopping is a very good way to make friendships. Not every age range likes to meet in bars and clubs.
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I have never said that they should 'give up their culture or language', although I certainly disagree with the government funding the support of immigrant languages and cultures. It is up to those communities to support their own cultures and they should not expect support from the state. |
You don't want them to give them up, but you want to make it financially and functionally impossible to continue with them? "Sure you can continue your religion, but don't expect access to any public funds or resources. Yes, we know you pay taxes too, but the white folk don't like it."
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How does wearing a skirt clash with the culture of Pakistan? It does, and people should accept it. |
But wearing a skirt has always clashed with the culture of Pakistan. Wearing a headscarf was somewhat chic in the UK until people like you noticed that Muslim women did it. Then it somehow became terrible and against our culture (despite you saying elsewhere of our culture of free expression). The truth is, it comes across as if you want to ban it simply because it is Muslims doing it.
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They came for the economic benefits, and not because of any desire for Western culture. They want to uphold their culture untouched while living in the UK, and obviously, this creates resentment. |
I maintain that they came for benefits other than purely economic ones. And I disagree that they want to uphold their culture untouched - I know many 2nd gen Muslims who drink, for one trite example. (As an aside, I find this kind of stereotyping rather offensive, too.)
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Then why are they still doing it in the UK? |
A few reasons. The community is still too self-contained, and thus keeping assets in the family is still important. The indiginous population isn't that interested in marrying them (and who can blame them when people like you paint a picture of them as money-grabbing neanderthals?) and the community isn't diverse enough to sustain out-of-family marriages. And it's what they're used to looking for.
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The Koreans shouldn't move at all? How about, for example, allowing foreigners to sign up for services without an ID number? |
Giving foreigners IDs to use the internet would hardly be a large concession. I am talking about fundamental changes to institutions such as the education and political system. |
I suspect that, for the Koreans, such a change would be a fundamental change to many of their institutions. It'd be acknowledging that not only Koreans needed to use them. The systems would need to be put in place to track the IDs given out.
But it's fine to ask the Koreans to do that, because you're a white male. Right?
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That the community could start to open up - if they get the required education and opportunities to let it happen. |
They are getting the required education, just like everyone else. |
Bollocks. Inner city schools are underfunded and have problems recruiting teachers - and don't get me started on the availability of basic adult education.
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I think you are seriously underestimating the role of culture, and conservative Islam, in preventing integration. |
I'm not denying that it makes it much more difficult. But I think attitudes like yours are what makes it near impossible.
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They've been here a damn sight longer, albeit not in numbers. |
Most blacks arrived in the 50s and 60s. Most Pakistanis arrived in the 70s and 80s. That's really not much of a difference. Certainly, not a 'damn sight longer'. |
Blacks had been a regular, if uncommon, sight in England for decades before that, though. The first black MP in England was elected in 1892. The first Asian was Keith Vaz.
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I believe that the reason they're more integrated is that they've been here longer |
That's nonsense, and it is not borne out by the figures. They have been here only two decades longer, and experienced just as much racism as Pakistanis, yet have much higher rates of intermarriage. This is largely due to cultural commonalities with the host community. |
And what were the levels of intermarriage in the black community twenty years ago? I don't have them to hand but I fully expect they would pretty much match that of the Pakistani community now. Certainly - as I've said until I'm blue in the face - the targets of the "they'll never integrate because they're too different / evil / culturally different / non-white" were the blacks up until maybe fifteen years ago.
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The reasons for Pakistanis marrying outside their family really don't have much to do with Islam. |
This statement shows the following:-
a) You seem to have little appreciation of the importance of Islam to Pakistani culture and identity, particularly in relation to marriage and raising children. Pakistani immigrants to England came from the most conservative and religious parts of the country. |
Ok, first understand that I was differentiating Islam the world religion to Islam as interpreted and practised by Pakistanis. You don't find many of their attitudes in other Islamic countries. Just as I find the Christian attitudes of much of the US Bible Belt disgusting.
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b) You have little understanding of Islam. It is forbidden in Islam for women to marry non-muslims, and very difficult for men. There is considerable opposition to marrying non-Pakistanis, and god forbid Christians, Jews, and Sikhs. Let's not even talk about Hindus. |
Nevertheless, it does happen. And every community - even WASPs - are suspicious of people who marry outside of their home country / culture / ethnicity.
I'm not denying that this severely disadvantages the Pakistani community, or that they need to change their attitudes towards this, though.
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Their culture, which is a conservative, Islamic culture, prevents them from integrating and makes intermarriage very unlikely. It has nothing to do with length of time in Britain and everything to do with the nature of Islam and the conservative aspects of Pakistani culture. I am quite confident that time will make your wishful thinking, vis-a-vis Pakistani integration look very foolish indeed. |
We'll see. Many young people reject conservative culture (when there's a meaningful alternative - if they're poorly educated they're far more likely to end up depending on their parents and the religious institutions surrounding them), seduced by the personal freedoms on offer. From that respect, it does very much reflect the time in the UK and the strength of the community, as well as things like the education level - the study into intermarriage we've both been quoting makes this very clear. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Let's all sit down some time and watch Ken Loach's Ae Fond Kiss.  |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: Uranus
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:47 am Post subject: |
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At least you are open and comfortable with your racism.
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Yes, after reading this mishmosh of explanations for 4 pages I just see a mess. When I seep into supremism, feel free to smack me but I see plenty of validity in racialism and provinciality. It does a good job of preventing mischief ie colonialism and genocide ie UK. Racism has its benefits. Do you think a racist would own a Black slave? Slave owners used to surround themselves with a 100 Black people during the day and then have sex with the Black females at night. The people with open minds are the ones that used to own slaves. Those would be Liberals. |
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:08 am Post subject: |
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You don't want them to give them up, but you want to make it financially and functionally impossible to continue with them? "Sure you can continue your religion, but don't expect access to any public funds or resources. |
Well exactly. The British state should not be supporting immigrant languages and religions. Religion is a private choice, and the state should play no part in promoting it. Moreover, the idea that taxpayer money should go towards the teaching of Yoruba, Urdu and Hindi when many people from such countries cannot speak functional English is a gross waste of public funds. Doing so actually impedes integration and allows such communities to function seperately. I would rather such money was reinvested into helping immigrants, and in particular women, learn English, and about British history, law and culture. I think this would greatly help integration and stop the alienation that many of these women experience from mainstream British life. Don't you think this would be a better use of funds?
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I'm not denying that it makes it much more difficult. But I think attitudes like yours are what makes it near impossible. |
So, the problem with muslims not integrating is not conservative Islam, but me pointing out the problems with conservative Islam? What a ridiculous argument.
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And what were the levels of intermarriage in the black community twenty years ago? I don't have them to hand but I fully expect they would pretty much match that of the Pakistani community now. |
The first generation of Blacks had much higher rates of intermarriage than first generation Pakistanis, undermining your argument that it is about time spent in the country and not culture. I will find the figures shortly.
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And every community - even WASPs - are suspicious of people who marry outside of their home country / culture / ethnicity. |
And how many cases have you heard of, of English fathers murdering their daughters for 'dishonouring' the family. There are countless examples of such crimes in the Pakistani community. |
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Do you think a racist would own a Black slave? |
Is this a trick question?
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Slave owners used to surround themselves with a 100 Black people during the day and then have sex with the Black females at night. |
Sorry, but it is quite possible to have sex with Black women and still be a raging racist. Saying that people with open minds are the ones that owned slaves has to be one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
Well exactly. The British state should not be supporting immigrant languages and religions. Religion is a private choice, and the state should play no part in promoting it. Moreover, the idea that taxpayer money should go towards the teaching of Yoruba, Urdu and Hindi when many people from such countries cannot speak functional English is a gross waste of public funds. Doing so actually impedes integration and allows such communities to function seperately. I would rather such money was reinvested into helping immigrants, and in particular women, learn English, and about British history, law and culture. I think this would greatly help integration and stop the alienation that many of these women experience from mainstream British life. Don't you think this would be a better use of funds? |
Why are you pretending it's a zero-sum game?
Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to support the CofE?
Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to teach English people French, or German, but not them Urdu or Hindi?
I'm all for teaching immigrants about British history, law and culture. Where we differ is that I want to spend the money (some if it theirs...) to support their cultural interests, too.
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I'm not denying that it makes it much more difficult. But I think attitudes like yours are what makes it near impossible. |
So, the problem with muslims not integrating is not conservative Islam, but me pointing out the problems with conservative Islam? What a ridiculous argument. |
Put your strawman away. The problem is not just conservative Islam, but also you and your ilk telling the rest of the country that conservative Islam means they can never integrate anyway. Conservative Islam can be worked around, but not by telling them they have to walk away from Islam and start behaving like good little WASPs. All you can do with Islam is point out the problems. And yet you demand respect from the people whose beliefs you stereotype and condemn.
Your argument is more ridiculous than mine.
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And what were the levels of intermarriage in the black community twenty years ago? I don't have them to hand but I fully expect they would pretty much match that of the Pakistani community now. |
The first generation of Blacks had much higher rates of intermarriage than first generation Pakistanis, undermining your argument that it is about time spent in the country and not culture. I will find the figures shortly. |
Please do, because it's not at all what I'd read. (Make sure they're not figures for /current/ first generation Blacks, too.)
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And every community - even WASPs - are suspicious of people who marry outside of their home country / culture / ethnicity. |
And how many cases have you heard of, of English fathers murdering their daughters for 'dishonouring' the family. There are countless examples of such crimes in the Pakistani community. |
Not English, but certainly Christian. Google for Faten Habash.
She was neither Muslim nor Pakistani.
And what about the Irish girls expelled from their families after becoming pregnant? Perhaps not murder, but no doubt their lives were destroyed. |
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to support the CofE? |
How does tax revenue support the CofE, and if it does I don't agree with that either.
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Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to teach English people French, or German, but not them Urdu or Hindi? |
Because Einstein, we live in Europe, and it is quite a good idea that our children speak a European language or two. It is up to people to teach their children about their native culture and language, not the state. It is the job of the state to ensure the education system gives youngsters the skills and knowledge to survive in the world. That requires a good knowledge of firstly English, and after that perhaps, a European language.
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Conservative Islam can be worked around |
Please do tell how?
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Perhaps not murder, but no doubt their lives were destroyed. |
You're right, it's in no way comparable to murder. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
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Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to support the CofE? |
How does tax revenue support the CofE, and if it does I don't agree with that either. |
Not directly, but through tax-breaks for their building, funding for CofE schools, rules over the way they treat their land, etc. Some of it is historical but it is a source of income not available to others.
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Why do you think their tax revenue should be used to teach English people French, or German, but not them Urdu or Hindi? |
Because Einstein, we live in Europe, and it is quite a good idea that our children speak a European language or two. |
I have a good knowledge of German, but over the last year it would have been far more useful to have known Hindi. And that has nothing to do with immigrants in the UK.
Spanish would also be useful, not just because of its role as a European language.
Of course, our children should be learning two foreign languages at school anyway, if you ask me. One of which should be non-European.
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It is up to people to teach their children about their native culture and language, not the state. It is the job of the state to ensure the education system gives youngsters the skills and knowledge to survive in the world. That requires a good knowledge of firstly English, and after that perhaps, a European language. |
Your world is very, very different to mine. I agree with your latter sentiment, though. I just believe that one part of helping children survive in the world is to understand their own culture, as well as that of their home nation, and encourage them to act as a bridge between the two. By forcing them into private classes to study their own culture you're hardly increasing integration.
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Conservative Islam can be worked around |
Please do tell how? |
Fundamentalism tends not to survive an increase in economic power amongst a group (with a few individuals acting as the exception). The French riots wouldn't have happened with an unemployment rate of 5% rather than 40%.
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Perhaps not murder, but no doubt their lives were destroyed. |
You're right, it's in no way comparable to murder. |
A large number - we'll never know how many, but the anecdotes of survivors are there - took their own lives. Effectively their lives were ended by the state. Those that lived, lived as slaves. It's not much better. |
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I just believe that one part of helping children survive in the world is to understand their own culture |
You demonstrate what I believe to be the fundamental problem with multiculturalism. I think that children born in Britain, regardless of their ethnic origin should be educated as if they were no different from other children, and that they are just as British or English or Scottish as indigeneous White children. I believe that if we all shared a more unified identity and had a shared sense of nationhood we would have less conflicts in the future. If you start teaching children from an early age that they are all different, and that they all have different cultural backgrounds, do not be surprised that they grow up to think of each other as different.
Again, it is up to parents (and most do this anyway) to teach their children, if they so wish, about their own religion and culture. It is of far more importance that children understand, and identify with, the culture and traditions of the country into which they are born. If I lived permanently in Korea, I would certainly not expect the Korean state to teach my kids about British history, or Anglicanism.
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One of which should be non-European. |
Which would probably be Chinese, or possibly Hindi. But such language programmes should be available to all children, and should not be targeted at specific ethnic groups so that they can stay in touch with their roots.
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The French riots wouldn't have happened with an unemployment rate of 5% rather than 40%. |
But, you have to ask yourself the question of why such groups experience such high levels of unemployment, when other ethnic groups do not. Of course, unemployment creates the conditions for such incidents, but I would argue that the non-integration of certain groups increases their distance from the mainstream and hence leads to economic problems. |
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jaganath69

Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:04 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote: |
A bunch of biggoted claptrap with a flimsy peice of anectdotal evidence used to extrapolate a bunk theory. Another personal insult to one's religion thrown in to boot |
Since there is no point in arguing with you I'm going to stoop to your level. I don't take offence btw. I've never met a white African with anything approaching a shade of humanity. Its no wonder the blacks wanted to wipe you all off the face of the earth. Use it for your sig old mate, and I'll quit bitching. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
You demonstrate what I believe to be the fundamental problem with multiculturalism. I think that children born in Britain, regardless of their ethnic origin should be educated as if they were no different from other children, and that they are just as British or English or Scottish as indigeneous White children. |
Actually, so do I (with reservations about language, below). My opinion is that tuition of cultural differences and understanding should be taught to all children, whereas yours appears to be that nothing should change in British classrooms and anyone who doesn't like that has to look outside the state system.
By the way, the English and Scottish education systems are very different.
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I believe that if we all shared a more unified identity and had a shared sense of nationhood we would have less conflicts in the future. If you start teaching children from an early age that they are all different, and that they all have different cultural backgrounds, do not be surprised that they grow up to think of each other as different. |
Again, there's nothing there I disagree with. What I find, though, is that you interpret that to be your identity, and that identity must not be 'corrupted' through interaction with those from outside the UK. You try to dictate what the 'unified identity' should be, saying that it's wrong to expect it to change as people come into the country from the outside. I fundamentally disagree with that approach.
Children ARE all different - and you're never going to be able to stop them seeing that. What's important to help them understand is that different isn't necessarily bad or scary. That applies as much to sex, education and political viewpoint as race.
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Again, it is up to parents (and most do this anyway) to teach their children, if they so wish, about their own religion and culture. It is of far more importance that children understand, and identify with, the culture and traditions of the country into which they are born. |
You see, this I ABSOLUTELY disagree with. How can other children learn about the strangers in their midst if this is the policy? How 'English' do you think it makes these children feel if what their family tell them is their past is utterly ignored at school?
I think cultural sensitivity has gone too far in many ways (and that banning the word Christmas, for example, patronises Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Buddhists just as surely as irritates Christians). But I believe cultural differences need to be first embraced before people can reach any cultural unity. Let democracy ban or attach a stigma to the worst excesses of fundamentalism. You want women to break free from the patriarchy of conservative Islam? Get more of them going to university. Cut down the amount of time their families feel they need to spend studying at the Mosque.
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If I lived permanently in Korea, I would certainly not expect the Korean state to teach my kids about British history, or Anglicanism. |
If there were a thousand Brits in a town of 50,000, I'd absolutely expect that it would. Besides (one for the other forum) how can anyone fully understand English without a grasp of the history of England and the US, and the way that influenced the language?
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Which would probably be Chinese, or possibly Hindi. But such language programmes should be available to all children, and should not be targeted at specific ethnic groups so that they can stay in touch with their roots. |
Absolutely they should be available to all children. The problem comes when you start forcing certain children to do certain languages. In some communities it's going to be much easier to find a Hindi teacher than an Italian teacher. That school is probably going to offer Hindi lessons. A school on the south coast might find it easy to find a French teacher. There has to be some sort of localisation effect here, and that is going to naturally happen according to the local community. It is a difficult question to answer. Even if you don't try to target at specific ethnic groups, it may well end up happening in that way anyway.
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But, you have to ask yourself the question of why such groups experience such high levels of unemployment, when other ethnic groups do not. Of course, unemployment creates the conditions for such incidents, but I would argue that the non-integration of certain groups increases their distance from the mainstream and hence leads to economic problems. |
There are many, many ethnic groups in those French suburbs. The employment policies of France, much as I admire them in some ways, don't make it at all easy for these people to be employed or set up on their own.
It's somewhat of an irony that entrepreneur is a French word. |
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Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: |
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ed4444 wrote: |
Also, according to Rapier we are mostly non-Christian. |
Maybe you really belong in Turkey with along with all the Palestinians. That would make as much sense as anything else Rapier has said here in the last year. |
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mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote: |
bigverne wrote: |
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I'm just saying I don't believe that it has ever really been achieved |
What are you talking about? People have been coming to Britain for centuries and they have intermarried and assimilated. In fact, second generation Irish in England tend to marry English and are almost completely assimilated. It helps that they are White, English speaking and Christian obviously. Blacks also have very high rates of intermarriage, and to a lesser extent so do Chinese. |
Exactly. buts it should be fairly clear to anybody that muslims never integrate. Not in a thousand years. They take over. Their religion is the only thing holding them down, keeping them separate.
Can anybody cite an example of muslims integrating successfully, anywhere, ever?
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I didn't think so. |
Well, I was about to list a few countries but I suspect you will pull up a blog somewhere on how a muslim in one of those countries did something bad to discredit the statement. So let's define what you mean. Here's what I propose as a definition:
Take a country, look at their ethnic groups, and if a primary muslim ethnic group has integrated better than the average of all other non-muslim ethnic groups, then you are wrong. Deal?
IOW, country A has 100 immigrants. 20 are muslims and 80 are not. The total number of crimes committed by the 80 non-muslims is 80 (some people committed two and others none). Out of the muslims, some are from Indonesia, others from Pakistan, etc. Let's say their total number of crimes is 21. However, Indonesians on average commit two crimes per person. But the Egyptians commit an average of 0.2 per person, below the national average. Thus, we have a muslim group being better citizens than the rest and we will assume a smoother integration because the proof is in the pudding.
If you'll agree to these terms we can find some numbers to test it, otherwise I'll just consider the statement to be bluster. Deal? |
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