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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: Arguments against the EU |
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Are these good arguments against further expansion and centralization of government? I don't know about that bit about a republic needing to have a small territory in order to exist, that's a bit silly.
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| Whoever seriously considers the immense extent of territory comprehended within the limits of Europe, together with the variety of its climates, productions, and commerce, the difference of extent, and number of inhabitants in all; the dissimilitude of interest, morals, and policies, in almost every one, will receive it as an intuitive truth, that a consolidated form of government therein, can never form a perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to you and your posterity, for to these objects it must be directed: this unkindred legislature therefore, composed of interests opposite and dissimilar in their nature, will in its exercise, emphatically be, like a house divided against itself. |
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| It is natural to a republic to have only a small territory, otherwise it cannot long subsist. In a large republic there are men of large fortunes, and consequently of less moderation; there are trusts too great to be placed in any single subject; he has interest of his own; he soon begins to think that he may be happy, great and glorious, by oppressing his fellow citizens; and that he may raise himself to grandeur on the ruins of his country. In a large republic, the public good is sacrificed to a thousand views; it is subordinate to exceptions, and depends on accidents. In a small one, the interest of the public is easier perceived, better understood, and more within the reach of every citizen; abuses are of less extent, and of course are less protected. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| STRATFOR analyzed France's refusal to participate in the invasion of Iraq as an attempt to consolidate (and be the hegemon of) the EU as a political entity with a unified international foreign policy rather than simply an economic and trading block, and this accounted for many eastern European countries joining the 'Coalition of the willing' as a reaction. Fascinating stuff. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| France's refusal was more to do with it not wanting to upset its large muslim minority, which as we have seen, is easily upset. God knows what mayhem would have been unleashed if France were involved in the Iraq conflict. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| that a consolidated form of government therein, can never form a perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to you and your posterity, for to these objects it must be directed: this unkindred legislature therefore, composed of interests opposite and dissimilar in their nature, will in its exercise, emphatically be, like a house divided against itself. |
SOMEONE is cribbing from American history here. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yet another of these threads.
They have a history of being against multiculturalism (on this threads), etc. I'm for multiculturalism.. but I believe in sovereignity of stated areas.
Meaning an area that believes in commonalities of its people should be able to promote it. Being from a Blue State of the United States without necessary wanting Red State politics and being forced it upon us - the same that would happen if predominate Turkey/Islam forced its beliefs on Northern Europe politically, etc. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| that a consolidated form of government therein, can never form a perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to you and your posterity, for to these objects it must be directed: this unkindred legislature therefore, composed of interests opposite and dissimilar in their nature, will in its exercise, emphatically be, like a house divided against itself. |
SOMEONE is cribbing from American history here. |
Good call.
I brought up those old quotes (changing the US to Europe) because they all turned out to be wrong.
This was the featured article on Wikipedia yesterday by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about that bit about a republic needing to have a small territory in order to exist, that's a bit silly.
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In the historical context, they didn't seem so silly. Up till then, the only republics were very small (and quite rare). One of the main historical arguments against a large republic was the Roman Republic. It was not able to maintain its democratic elements once it became an empire.
The EU could quite easily adopt the US Constitution with only a handful of changes. The constitution is a federal document designed to allow the component parts to maintain their identity. (There are other federal republics they could learn from as well.)
I smile every time I remember that the constitution the EU recently produced is 800 pages long. Hilarious. They must not be serious about writing a blueprint for government. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I smile every time I remember that the constitution the EU recently produced is 800 pages long. Hilarious. They must not be serious about writing a blueprint for government. |
The problem is that the exact opposite is true - they really are very serious about writing an exact blueprint for government. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| The EU could quite easily adopt the US Constitution with only a handful of changes. The constitution is a federal document designed to allow the component parts to maintain their identity. (There are other federal republics they could learn from as well.) |
A dream: the French would - could - never agree to something so succinct and simple.
(we'd need to incorporate the amendments too, except no 2 of course, to make sure that all got the vote) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| that a consolidated form of government therein, can never form a perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to you and your posterity, for to these objects it must be directed: this unkindred legislature therefore, composed of interests opposite and dissimilar in their nature, will in its exercise, emphatically be, like a house divided against itself. |
SOMEONE is cribbing from American history here. |
Good call.
I brought up those old quotes (changing the US to Europe) because they all turned out to be wrong.
This was the featured article on Wikipedia yesterday by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 |
I'm not at all sure it is wrong. Two, literally, stolen elections, Enron, Halliburton, the Bush gang... No, I'm not at all certain it's wrong. |
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