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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I grew up with the Tyson hype, so in the ring in his prime he was it.
There was no one in boxing that could survive a direct hit from Tyson when he was in his prime. As we found out later if there WAS any chance you you survive, (or avoid the punch all together) there was no way Don King was letting you in the ring with Tyson.
Still Tyson in his prime against anyone else I would say one thing.
It lasts 4 rounds or less and I am betting everything on Tyson.
After 4 rounds...I would put my money on Ali.
Honestly though, (if we are talking dream match-ups) I think one of the best match-ups would have been Foreman (in his prime) vs. Tyson (in his prime). |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
And with his time in exile, we never got to see him at his best.
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Tyson had 6 years behind bars. Ali's "time in exile ' was hardly a reality, he still got many, many fights:
28 Apr 1967 Ali refuses induction into US Army;
NY State revokes his license to box as do many others
8 May Ali is indicted for draft evasion by Federal Grand Jury
15 Jun Alvin "Blue" Lewis Detroit, MI Exh 3
15 Jun Orvill Qualls Detroit, MI Exh 3
On June 20, 1967, a jury for the U.S. District Court for the
Southern District of Texas, Houston Division, returned a
verdict of guilty against Ali on the charge of violating the
Universal Military Training and Service Act because of his
refusal to be inducted. Judge Joe Ingraham sentences
him to a term 5 years imprisonment and a fine of $10,000.
Ali appeals the next day and is released on bond.
1970
Jan 20 Rocky Marciano TKO by 8
On February 1, 1970, Ali officially retired and vacated the title.
This assured that the winner of the Joe Frazier vs. Jimmy Ellis
"unification" bout would be considered the undisputed champion.
On September 11, 1970, Ali announced that he had signed to fight
Jerry Quarry in Georgia, which had no state commission. At the time,
Ali's conviction for draft evasion was on appeal to the U.S. Supreme
Court. Meanwhile, Ali had won a separate Federal Court action
that held the New York State Athletic Commission's refusal to
give Ali a license was arbitrary and capricious and contrary to law.
The Commission did not appeal that ruling.
-- Sep Rufus Braswell Site Exh 2
-- Sep Johnny Hudgins Site Exh 2
-- Sep George Hill Site Exh 4
26 Oct Jerry Quarry Atlanta, GA KO3
7 Dec Oscar Bonavena New York, NY TK 15
30 Dec Ali signs to fight Joe Frazier in March
1971
8 Mar Joe Frazier New York, NY L15
(For World Heavyweight Title)
25 Jun J.D. McCauley Dayton, OH Exh 2
25 Jun Eddie Brooks Dayton, OH Exh 3
25 Jun Rufus Brassell Dayton, OH Exh 3
28 Jun U.S. Supreme Court reverses Ali's draft evasion conviction
30 Jun Alex Mack Charleston, SC Exh 3
30 Jun Eddie Brooks Charleston, SC Exh 4
26 Jul Jimmy Ellis Houston, TX KO12
(Won Vacant NABF Heavyweight Title)
21 Aug Lancer Johnson Caracas Exh 4
21 Aug Eddie Brooks Caracas Exh 4
23 Aug Lancer Johnson Port of Spain, Trinidad Exh 4
23 Aug Eddie Brooks Port of Spain, Trinidad Exh 2
6 Nov James Summerville Buenos Aires Exh 5
6 Nov Miguel Paez Buenos Aires Exh 5
17 Nov Buster Mathis Houston, TX W12
19 Oct Opponent England Exh 8
26 Dec Jurgen Blin Zurich, Switzerland KO7
1972
28 Jan Opponent Vancouver, Can Exh 10
18 Feb Al Migliorato Pittsburgh Exh 4
1 Apr Mac Foster Tokyo W15
1 May George Chuvalo Vancouver, Canada W12
(Retained NABF Heavyweight Title)
29 Jun Jerry Quarry Las Vegas, NV KO7
(Retained NABF Heavyweight Title)
1 Jul Lonnie Bennett Los Angeles, CA Exh 2
1 Jul Eddie Jones Los Angeles, CA Exh 2
1 Jul Billy Ryan Los Angeles, CA Exh 2
1 Jul Charley James Los Angeles, CA Exh 2
1 Jul Rudy Clay Los Angeles, CA Exh 2
19 Jul Al Lewis Dublin KO 11
1 Aug Gregorio Peralta Barcelona, Spain Exh 8
24 Aug Obie English Baltimore, MD Exh 4
24 Aug Ray Anderson Baltimore, MD Exh 2
24 Aug Alonzo Johnson Baltimore, MD Exh 2
24 Aug George Hill Baltimore, MD Exh 2
Aug 28 Alonzo Johnson Cleveland, OH Exh 2
Aug 28 Amos Johnson Cleveland, OH Exh 2
Aug 28 Terry Daniels Cleveland, OH Exh 2
Aug 28 Rodney Greene Cleveland, OH Exh 1
Aug 28 Gary Dee Cleveland, OH Exh 1
The Aug 28 exhibitions were a purported fund-raiser
for Forest City Hospital, significant as Don King's
first "promotion."
20 Sept Floyd Patterson New York KO7
(Retained NABF Heavyweight Title)
11 Oct (John) Dino Dennis Boston, MA Exh 2
11 Oct Cliff McDonald Boston, MA Exh 2
11 Oct Doug Kirk Boston, MA Exh 2
11 Oct Ray Anderson Boston, MA Exh 2
11 Oct Paul Raymond Boston, MA Exh 2
Nov 18 Al Jones Johannesburg, S.A. Sch-x
Nov 21 Bob foster Stateline, NV KO8
(Retained NABF Heavyweight Title)
Nov 28 Charlie Boston Salem, Va Exh 2
Nov 28 Jimmy Wingfield Salem, Va Exh 2
Nov 28 John Jordan Salem, Va Exh 2
Nov 28 Alonzo Johnson Salem, Va Exh 2
1973
Feb 14 Joe Bugner Las Vegas, NV W12
Feb 23 Roy "Cookie" Wallace Dallas Exh 4
Mar 31 Ken Norton San Diego L12
(Lost NABF Heavyweight Title)
Sep 10 Ken Norton Los Angeles W12
(Regained NABF Heavyweight Title)
Oct 21 Rudi Lubbers Jakarta, Indonesia W12
1974
Jan 23 Joe Frazier and Ali brawl at ABC Studios
Jan 28 Joe Frazier New York, NY W12
(Retained NABF Heavyweight Title)
Oct 30 George Foreman Kinshasa KO8
(Won World Heavyweight Title)
Dec 3 Opponent London, Eng Exh
1975
24 Mar Chuck Wepner Cleveland, OH KO15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
16 May Ron Lyle Las Vegas, NV KO11
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
30 Jun Joe Bugner Kuala Lumpur W15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
1 Oct Joe Frazier Manila KO14
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
Dec 6 Randy Stephens Dallas, Tx Exh 3
1976
20 Feb Jean Pierre Coopman San Juan, PR KO5
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
30 Apr Jimmy Young Landover, MD W15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
24 May Richard Dunn Munich, Germany KO5
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
25 Jun Antonio Inoki Tokyo Exh D15
(above was boxer-wrestler exhibition)
27 Jun Gerald Noble Seoul Exh 1 (5 min.)
27 Jun Larry D. Rice Seoul Exh
28 Sep Ken Norton New York W15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
1977
29 Jan Peter Fuller Boston, MA Exh 2
29 Jan Walter Haines Boston, MA Exh 1
29 Jan Jerry Houston Boston, MA Exh 2
29 Jan Ron Drinkwater Boston, MA Exh 2
29 Jan Matt Ross Boston, MA Exh 2
29 Jan Frank Smith Boston, MA Exh 1
(Above a Benefit for Elma Lewis School of Fine Arts)
16 May Alfredo Evangelista Landover, MD W 15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
16 Jul Ali boxes at Ron Taylor's Boxing Booth, England
29 Sep Earnie Shavers New York, NY W 15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
14 Nov Bernardo Mercado Bogata, Colombia Exh 5
2 Dec Scott LeDoux Chicago, IL Exh 5
1978
15 Feb Leon Spinks Las Vegas, NV L15
(Lost World Heavyweight Title)
15 Aug Leon Spinks New Orleans, LA W15
(Won World Heavyweight Title)
1979
Mar 12 Ali's Farewell Night, Providence RI
Mar 12 Dino Dennis Providence, RI Exh 2
Mar 12 Alonzo Johnson Providence, RI Exh 2
Mar 12 Jimmy Ellis Providence, RI Exh 2
May 25 Opponent London, Eng Exh
May 27 Alonzo Johnson Randers, Den Exh 5
May 27 Jimmy Ellis Randers, Den Exh 5
Jun 7 Opponent Birmingham, Eng Exh
Jun 27 Ali announces his retirement
Jul 10 World Premiere of film "Freedom Road" starring Ali
Jul 14 Lyle Alzado Denver, CO Exh 8
(Weights -- Ali 234; Alzado 243.5)
1980
Oct 2 Larry Holmes Las Vegas, NV LK 11
(For World Heavyweight Title)
1981
11 Dec Trevor Berbick Nassau, Bahamas L10
1982
Jul 19 Opponent Tulsa, OK Exh
Undated
late 1971 Alonzo Johnson & Georgio Bambini Exh at Genoa, Italy
(Ali fought both men at same time!)
mid 1972 Ba Sounkalo Exh
mid 1975 Opponent Exh 6, Benefit for Shaw College
Fall 1978 Sammy Davis,Jr. Exh, Benefit for Howard Bingham
Fall 1978 3 Opponents Exh in Moscow
Feb 1979? Luke Capuano Exh at DePaul University
circa 1979 Opponent Exh in Casablanca
In fact, you could say Ali's "Impressive record" is made up of exhibition matches against a host of sub standard opponents. Sammy Davis jr being one of them.
Both Tyson and Ali drew large crowds because of their exciting personas. Its just that Tyson's was built on notoriety, not articulate confidence. |
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Badmojo
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Location: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
As a fighter I think his build, speed, and sheer aggressiveness would have taken out Ali quite early on. in his prime, he never gave taller opponents a chance to use their greater reach.
Of course Ali has greater stamina and is far more articulate, better at making his opponent lose focus, etc...but he wouldn't get the time needed to make it work. |
Tyson wouldn't have been able to find the prime Ali. No way. Jab, move, jab, move. The guy hardly got hit.
Anyway, the past prime Ali beat his generation's Tyson - George Foreman. The most intimidating fighter in the history of the division is not Tyson, but Foreman, or so says Max Kellerman. And it's hard not to believe him. Do you see his destruction of Joe Frazier? Brutal. The guy hadn't gone more than four rounds in like six years or something ridiculous like that before Zaire.
Mike Tyson built his legacy up by beating bums. He never fought anyone good. He lost to Buster Douglas for crying out loud. He had tough fights with Razor Rudduck, and Rudduck was nothing. Just ask Lennox Lewis.
The fact is that Mike Tyson lost to every decent fighter he's ever fought. How in the hell would he beat Ali then? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| As for Tyson, he was a detriment to the sport but the greater crime is that he was a larger detriment to the black community. He was a dummy all his life, used to rob old ladies on their way home from the grocery store when he was a kid, and his behavior when he was sent into the higher reaches of American society by a talent for thuggery showed not the slightest hint of elevation from those beginnings. |
Amen. I was waiting for someone to bring that up.
Everytime I see that animal in the ring, I think of the old white ladies he beat up for pocket change. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:27 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Badmojo"]
| Quote: |
| Anyway, the past prime Ali beat his generation's Tyson - George Foreman. The most intimidating fighter in the history of the division is not Tyson, but Foreman, or so says Max Kellerman. And it's hard not to believe him. Do you see his destruction of Joe Frazier? Brutal. The guy hadn't gone more than four rounds in like six years or something ridiculous like that before Zaire. |
Frazier beat Ali in his prime, remember? Trevor berbick and Larry holmes beat Ali, and Tyson whipped them both...
| Quote: |
| The fact is that Mike Tyson lost to every decent fighter he's ever fought. How in the hell would he beat Ali then? |
So he lost to lennox lewis and Evander Holyfield in the twilight of his almost-retired career, big deal. He fought the best to gain and defend his undisputed world champion title..lets just look at his prime years,-some tough opponents..
1987 (4-0)
Mar.7 James Smith, Las Vegas, W 12
(Won WBA Heavyweight Title/Retained WBC Heavyweight Title)
May 30 Pinklon Thomas, Las Vegas, TKO 6
(Retained WBA/WBC Heavyweight Titles)
Aug. 1 Tony Tucker, Las Vegas, W 12
(Won IBF Heavyweight Title/Retained WBA/WBC Heavyweight Titles/Became Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion)
Oct. 16 Tyrell Biggs, Atlantic City, TKO 7
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
1988 (3-0)
Jan. 22 Larry Holmes, Atlantic City, TKO 4
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
Mar. 21 Tony Tubbs, Tokyo, Japan, TKO 2
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
June 27 Michael Spinks, Atlantic City, KO 1
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
1989 (2-0)
Feb. 25 Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, TKO 5
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
July 21 Carl Williams, Atlantic City, TKO 1
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title
-I don't see how you can say they were all bums.
if you needed reminding..tyson 44 knockouts in 50 fights..Ali 37, in 56.
You don't like his media image/grandma-mugging, wife beating personality, fine...but don't let that color your view of his ability in the ring. |
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Badmojo
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Location: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Frazier beat Ali after his prime. When he couldn't box, he lost a bit. George Chuvalo fought him twice, once in 65 or 66, and then after his layoff. He said he wasn't the same fighter the second time around. He didn't have the same sense of combinations. He wasn't as sharp.
That's what made Ali great. He got robbed of his peak by the draft fiasco. He didn't come back as good as he was before, but he still beat everyone.
Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, these guys are bums. Michael Spinks was a puffed up cruiserweight absolutely terrified of Tyson. Those are not credible challangers.
Anyway Rapier, we'll never know exactly what would have happened if you put the 86 Tyson in with the 64 Ali. I'll take the 64 Ali on the basis of speed and skill. I mean Liston hardly even touched him. |
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Free World
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Drake Hotel
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: |
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I just saw this on the news. Too bad that he didn't quit being a woman-beater when he quit boxing.
Sounds like while in Italy he forced a woman onto his yacht and when she refused to do drugs and fu(k him, he beat her up.
No, I don't have a source for this because it was television news but I'm sure you can google it. What a DlCKHEAD. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Here's one:
Tyson denies allegations he struck woman in Italy
This wierd little aside was my favorite part of the article:
"Paris Hilton was at a nearby table, minus her fiance, but Tyson apparently didn't recognize her when she waved, the La-Stampa newspaper reported." |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Everytime I see that animal in the ring, I think of the old white ladies he beat up for pocket change. |
Meant to ask this several months ago, dog ... why did you assume the old ladies were white? I heard about the muggings but not the skin color of the matrons, so maybe you know more than I do about it ...
DO you know they old ladies were white? Why mention it otherwise? And would the thuggery have been less heinous for being black-on-black crime?
Just curious, and no attack meant here, but why say so otherwise? I mean, unless you know the old ladies were white, why say so, and if you don't know, why assume it? Get back to me ... enquiring minds, all that stuff. |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Frazier beat Ali in his prime, remember? Trevor berbick and Larry holmes beat Ali, and Tyson whipped them both... |
Check this out:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1609.php
Even though I agree that Ali wasn't the golden boy the media has made him out to be, his ability in the ring is undeniable. Foreman in '74 was twice the fighter Tyson was in his prime and look what Ali did to him...
| Quote: |
| It is absolutely a fact that Mike Tyson was afraid to fight 41-year-old George Foreman--the same Foreman who Evander Holyfield would fight and beat in April of 1991. I have not a doubt that had Foreman and Tyson fought anytime between 1990 and 1997 that Foreman would have knocked Tyson out inside of three rounds. Tyson just has nothing to beat Foreman with; his edge in hand speed would have been a non-factor. He can't beat him by backing away, and he would have gotten his head handed to him if he brought the fight to Foreman. In addition, Foreman was bigger, stronger, tougher and hit harder. Not to mention the fact that Foreman had a better chin and no fear or doubt, unlike Tyson, who was full of fear and self-doubt. |
| Quote: |
| I haven't a morsel of a doubt that Tyson just doesn't match up with Foreman, and he knows it. If Tyson of 1990 was afraid of an old Foreman, think how petrified he would of been of a prime Foreman, the one who stared down both Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali in 1973 and 1974. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| sparkx wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Even though I agree that Ali wasn't the golden boy the media has made him out to be, his ability in the ring is undeniable. |
And especially outside ... and it looks like he still has that. |
Bush gave him and a bunch of others the ]Medal of Freedom a few weeks ago. Recipients are not allowed to speak while accepting the award - this is because the only politics that are allowed to be injected are the statements chosen by the Prez when he hands the thing out.
Medal of Freedom Ceremony Shows Ali as Fast as Ever
| Quote: |
Bush, who appeared almost playful, fastened the heavy medal around Muhammad Ali's neck and whispered something in the heavyweight champion's ear. Then, as if to say "bring it on," the president put up his dukes in a mock challenge. Ali, 63, who has Parkinson's disease and moves slowly, looked the president in the eye -- and, finger to head, did the "crazy" twirl for a couple of seconds.
The room of about 200, including Cabinet secretaries, tittered with laughter. Ali, who was then escorted back to his chair, made the twirl again while sitting down. And the president looked visibly taken aback, laughing nervously. |
The account of the event concludes thusly :
| Quote: |
| Ali, dressed in a suit, barely cracking a smile, received the loudest and most sustained applause of the day. And the always quotable man who said "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong" and "I am the onliest of boxing's poet laureates" delivered the most striking moment without speaking a word. |
Ali is still "The Greatest."
Here's a blog site offering a photo of the finger-twirling :
The Left Coaster |
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