Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ontheway]

Makemischief gave the most revealing evidence as to why this mystery person should finish his contract:

"...if he ever wants to leave this job..."

In other words, he's just fishing for a way out because the grass looks greener over there.

This means it's most likely that this person could NOT win any dispute with the labor board nor in court. He signed a contract but he's got a whim and a hankerin to mosey on down the line to greener grass. Yup, he's free to go, but he'll have to pay: airfare and a month's salary.

So, be a man and finish your contract.

[makemischief]

silly trolling "ontheway."

i'm a uni teacher here and not likely to change jobs anytime soon. i'm asking this question as a favor to a "mystery" friend as you say (do you truly need his email, measurements and contact info? i don't really see how it is relevant).

he is a man indeed, but works at a dodgy dodgy school. nuked grass would be greener than this.

moral: don't read too much into a single sentence, and try to keep on topic rather than making assumptions and personal attacks based on your interpretation of the causes behind a given question.

everyone else: thanks for the advice- i've passed it along and he's working on the next move.

[ontheway]

There was no attack on you Makemischief. In your OP you said there was no breach of contract, just a nasty job. Then you said, if "he" (so you told us that indeed it's a man) ever wants to leave, which implies that he doesn't want to leave now.

The guy wants a better job. He should stay where he is. Learn from his mistake of being over eager as you put it and earn a better job and save a fight and some money. And how does he explain this to his next potential Korean boss: that he doesn't read things before signing them, that he doesn't honor contracts even when there has been no breach of the terms (as you said) or make up some other story (lie).

Yes, unless there is some significant breach or a compelling unbearable conditions other than being nasty, he should finish the job he agreed to do.

YOU asked for advice. Don't complain if you don't like it. He won't win with the labor board or in court. He can work or pay, either way, according to the contract he signed. It's funny how teachers who want Koreans to honor their contracts don't want to honor their own contracts.

[cruisemonkey]

Anyone who signs contract "... without a full perusal of the various clauses..." is an idiot and deserves to have to pay a month's salary on top of the airfare.

[bellum99]

Grotto....they didn't win. Those organizations can't and don't want the hassles of a fight. We are talking about a small private school...wake up. A university doesn't really care about a couple million won nor does the public school. I said a foolish boss would give in but I personally know many cases where the labor board couldn't help the teacher.
How about you pull your stupid monkey head out of your as#$#$ and read a post. I am right and you are dim. You can't sue a school alone because the cost is too high. The labor board can't force the boss to pay. It is a long and expensive process to actually get the money owed to you from a smart thieving boss ( this guy's contract shows the boss is not a stupid person).

For someone who has been on this board a long time, Grotto, you need to really learn some things.

[makemischief]

true that ontheway, and i can appreciate your point, nor did i feel personally attacked- i was simply clarifying the mix of pronouns (he vs. you) in your initial response. i did indeed ask for advice and i should not be unhappy if i do not like it, though I would prefer it of course to be on point.

thus my issue with your reply is that it addressed your assessment of what you think he should do, that he should"be a man" etc., rather than answering the question of what options exist assuming staying in the job is not the choice on the table.

the situation again was:

he is leaving.
his contract has punitive causes which are likely illegal under labor law.
he wants to know what the best way to leave is, meaning- with the purely hypothetical and hopeful possibility of working before the end of his existing contract and, again, with the faint hope of not having to bribe his way out by paying a month's salary.

do any of these options exist or is he stuck- that is to say, are his only options for LEAVING to pay or to run and wait till his contract expires, with the potential of a 5 year no entry being put on his passport?

Your advice that says "BE A MAN" is based on your own perception of a moral imperative, without an understanding of the situation (which was NOT detailed because it was not the question at hand), and was not related to my very straightforward question as to what his legal options for leaving are, IF ANY.

I'm happy with any voice that addresses my actual question, even if the answer is that he is a SOL and totally irrevocably stuck, stuck and stuck, but playing amateur detective hour trying to piece together the possible motives and then passing judgement on them degrades this board into the la la land of pat roberston condemning towns for not embracing "intellegent" design.

to make matters worse: saying stick it out ignores the large number of first-time-in-korea teachers who come over here ignorantly believing the oral guarantees of directors or recruiters only to find a vastly different and unmanageable reality when they arrive (and yes I can understand the temptation of people who have been here longer saying just "too bad" and "live and learn") - but IF they can seek employment at a legitimate school before the end of their first contract that seems more proactive then just accepting their bad lot- and I would argue contributes more to changing the situation where many if not most hagwons believe they can just use teachers as a disposable commodity. change won't occur if every teacher just accepts and sticks out a nasty contract, or just runs away instead. alas, this paragraph strays completely away from my own question as to what options exist, and delves itself into that muddy ground of moralizing.

we were all probably once "that idiot" as cruisemonkey says, and mayhaps deserved to pay- but if that "character building" blow can be dodged mid-swing I'd like to try and help him do it (though I imagined from the get go that this was a long shot).

bellum99 is unfortunately (though with a most uncouth manner) almost certainly correct about suing. it's none too hard to file a labor board claim, and even to have them find in your favor- and sometimes that is enough to get a school to pay up- but really the organization lacks the teeth to actually enforce their decisions.

[bellum99]

Sorry about losing my temper. The real problem comes from the fact that the law will say one thing but the application of that law is totally different than the literal interpretation. Korea is filled with these problems.
He can give notice and the boss should give him a release letter in a timely manner without illegal and punative penalties. This is probably the law interpreted correctly. But the reality is not this. We are basically saying that he could have a lot of trouble getting out of this contract and not paying for doing it. He should just try to finish the contract because it may be the best choice among many bad options.
There is no easy answer.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[bellum99]

Once again I will repeat the costs and time spent doing it are excessive.
Even if the boss loses a court fight..he can appeal the decision 3 times.
What this means is that he can play a waiting game with you for a long time. Also, if you give him any reason he will counter sue you and this will take a while to finish and you will probably just give up.

My point is that it is not worth thinking about court action. It is not a possible option for most people. People who try to use court action almost never follow through on it because of the factors I have mentioned. He may have a strong case but it doesn't matter due to process he must go through. Remember Koreans get cheated too and the court system is not fair to them either.

[Grotto]

[ontheway]

Makemischief,

Now that you say that your friend is definitely leaving, then I would give a totally different answer. Having determined that the job is actually too nasty to bear, your friend IMHO should give a reasonable amount of notice, (30-60 days) talk to the employer and resign. Stay calm and reasonable, but be firm. That is, the terms are negociable, but quitting is not. "I can't stand it. I'm leaving. I'll give you 30 days to find a new teacher, but I want a release letter, in advance, and I want to get paid. I'll make a deal on the airfare, prorated as follows..."

Your friend will be taking the financial risks and the possible lack of a release letter etc. that you already mentioned, but if he works with the employer he's got a chance that the employer will be reasonable. The employer just wants to keep going and keep a teacher there.

If your friend considers that the worst possible outcome which you've already explained is BETTER than continuing this job, then he should quit. It's just a matter of strategy.

And, if his housing is provided by the employer, he should either move out his valuables and documents in advance, or at least be ready to move almost instantly.

[bellum99]

I agree. He should prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Remember that sometimes the boss will go crazy in the begining and then they will try to be reasonable (korean thing). They sometimes dramatize things a lot at the start. He should try to see how things are after a few days. The first thing a boss says after you say you are quitting is not really how it will be.
Make sure he has a place to stay (locks can be changed) and anything important is not in the house. Do this before he talks to the boss. Things can get ugly that first day.

[some waygug-in]

Sometimes the best revenge can be found in doing nothing.

The school is very small, less than 5 employees. Labour laws don't apply I am told.

I had to laugh recently at all the problems my ex-boss is having with the new "teachers" he has hired. Dispite my posting the name of the school on various blacklists, he has had no trouble finding willing "suckers" to work for him.

One of my ex-co-workers made this statement, "He should have just paid you, then we wouldn't have any of this trouble".

Yes!

But I still didn't get my money.

[Francis-Pax]

I think there is room for negotiation. I once ended my contract early with a hogwon. There was a lot of room for negotiating the terms of release.

Every situation is unique and nothing is written in stone. That is from my personal experience.

Overall, I am hopeful about your friends situation.