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Using "a lot of" with countable nouns...
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gypsyfish

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:05 am Post subject:

PatrickSiheung wrote:

And since I'd rather not make a mistake like that again in the future... anyone know of any good sites explaining English Grammar for teachers?

I know there are websites but can't think of any off hand. You might pick up either Michael Swan's Practical English Usage or Martin Parrott's book about English for teachers (can't think of the title, right now). Both are good references and Parrott's give good insight into learner error and how to teach vocabulary.

Good luck.

denverdeath

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:35 am Post subject:

PatrickSiheung wrote:

Thanks a lot guys. Although a tad harsh, you taught me something today lol. I'll owe that student an apology next week.

And since I'd rather not make a mistake like that again in the future... anyone know of any good sites explaining English Grammar for teachers?

I've always found this site great:

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

Maybe you can find some useful stuff here, too:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/ (new site)

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/ (more specific, but not a lot there yet)

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/oldindex.html (old site)

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/index.html (grammar crap from above)

That Swan book is pretty good as is almost anything by Cambridge or Oxford. I personally like "Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers"(Troyka: Prentice Hall).

Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:44 am Post subject:

VanIslander wrote:

Your student is right. You are wrong.

At least in terms of formal grammar: "many" and "much" are to be used in questions and negative statements; "a lot of" is to be used with positive statements of both countable and uncountable nouns. A hundred old grammar books say so, as do several ESL teaching texts sitting on my shelf.

Of course, common usage varies.

But basically, your student has better grammar than you. Surprised

That's the fact jack!

While much should never be used in positive statements many can sometimes be used particularly at the start of a sentence when making general statements e.g.,
'Many fashion models resort to drugs to keep their bodies slim.'

Manner of Speaking

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:51 am Post subject:

I actually recommend to my students that they should use 'a lot of' instead of 'much' or 'many'...saves worrying about whether the noun is count or noncount.

Privateer

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:03 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

Given the problem students have using 'much' and 'many' correctly they'd be better off using 'a lot of' or 'lots of' as a default.

I'm with Privateer. In fact, I tell my students to use 'a lot of/lots of' if they can't figure out 'much/many' because it will always be correct.

Do your students listen to you Ya-ta Boy? I tell them that and you'd think that would fix the problem but 2 or 3 lessons down the line and it's back to 'I have much money'. Perhaps electric shock treatment? A man can dream...

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:13 am Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

Yeah. It should be "a lot of assignments" or "lots of assignments", "scads of assignments", "oodles of assignments", or the more visual "I've got assignments up the butt", but not "many assignments".

Where do you dream up this stuff?

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:17 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

Given the problem students have using 'much' and 'many' correctly they'd be better off using 'a lot of' or 'lots of' as a default.

I'm with Privateer. In fact, I tell my students to use 'a lot of/lots of' if they can't figure out 'much/many' because it will always be correct.

Um, not quite. "A lot of" goes with countables, "lots of" with non-countables...

...well... except this is basically slang... so anything goes...

Rolling Eyes

I sincerely hope you are all teaching correct usage then pointing out colloquial usage, rather than the other way around?

jacl

Joined: 31 Oct 2005

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:19 am Post subject:

It has nothing to do with negative or positive sentences. Has nothing to do with questions. You can say "I have much money" or "I have a lot of money". You can say "Do you have much money?" or "Do you have a lot of money?" I hope people aren't teaching these silly negative/positive theories.

Bee Positive

Joined: 27 Oct 2005

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

Given the problem students have using 'much' and 'many' correctly they'd be better off using 'a lot of' or 'lots of' as a default.

I'm with Privateer. In fact, I tell my students to use 'a lot of/lots of' if they can't figure out 'much/many' because it will always be correct.

Um, not quite. "A lot of" goes with countables, "lots of" with non-countables...

Sorry, but I've got to disagree.

There's a lot of sugar in this coffee.

There's a lot of water in the ocean.

I have a lot of free time this weekend.

Dave's Cafe has lots and lots of readers.

As you say, all colloquial, and of course there's no final arbiter of correct style. Grace a Dieu, we're not . . . les francais!

To follow up on what another poster had to say about Koreans' linguistic savvy, a few quick anecdotes:

My spelling is good but not perfect. A few months ago I misspelled "usage" as "useage," right there on the whiteboard while in class, and instantly had a roomful of high and middle school students howling at me.

On another occasion, I had to define the word "legible." A hand shot up. "What's the root of this word?" my student wanted to know. Happily, I've done Latin, and so was able to supply "legere" as the root. Boy, did I feel smug.

This brings to mind another true story. I was teaching adult conversational English in Seoul. It was my very first morning of "advanced" class. My very first question? Is "fete" related to "feast"? This was from a PhD candidate who, as I subsequently learned, had something of a penchant for nerdy questions. "Ah, yes, they're both descended from the Latin 'festa,' the first via French, where the circumflex accent over the first 'e' indicates that the Latin ess has dropped out." Did that off the top of my head, and in so doing felt that I had established instant credibility as an at least semi-bona fide language teacher.

But at moments like these I find myself wondering: If you weren't an English major or otherwise really strongly clued into language from years and years back, specifically English, how the heck do you manage it here without excessive loss of face, UNLESS you are doing kindergarten?

By the way, I work with textbooks that have me lecturing on things like "syntactic and semantic variety." Dependent clauses, dangling participles, explaining why "however" when it occurs midsentence should properly be preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma, etc. to no end.

I am NOT in any way certified, have no CELTA or anything like it, but DID major in English, studied Latin, French, and others, kicked a** on the GRE Verbal (top 1%--sorry, not to boast), and REALLY wonder how others can keep up with the more linguistically savvy Korean KIDS (let alone adults) without a similar background.

BEE POSITIVE

VanIslander

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Um, not quite. "A lot of" goes with countables, "lots of" with non-countables...

They are interchangeable. Either is correct usage. According to ESL textbooks! Just look at the Let's Go series as a very popular example of it. I will bother to get specific citations to a half dozen sources once ANY evidence post-1950 is provided to the contrary.

For a guy with "EFLTrainer" as a username, you should be more up to date with the industry!

Seriously. Cite an ESL source as evidence. You can't because the industry considers "lots of" = "a lot of". ESLers would be doing a disservice trying to impose a correct/colloquial distinction on a usage that does NOT recognize the distinction (where do English speakers follow such an archaic grammar rule?).

The only distinction made in the ESL industry is between formal ("a lot of") amd informal ("lots of"), and even that difference is minimized and considered localized.

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