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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:04 am Post subject: |
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It's perfectly OK to quibble over what 'most' means. It's been debated here many times in the 6 years I've been on the board. 'Most' ( ^^) people seem to think 1 in 3 foreigners are majorly dysfunctional...no objective standard available, but I claim the right of 'authority' due to my amazingly tolerant acceptance of whack jobs on this forum...
I don't agree that it is a majority. I do disagree with TUM on that point.
My objection is that people, no matter what the percentage really is, use it an an excuse to be rude.
Would it really hurt most of you to stop thinking how many Frosted Flakes boxes you can accumulate in the next 3 weeks or be late by 10 minutes on your masturbation schedule to be civil to a newbie on the street who is trying to locate an import shop where he/she can buy some Jell-o? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Hmmmm....I see 'self abuse' is a forbidden word here at Dave's. What you can learn on a forum! My, my. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
But what is your justification for even saying most foreigners here were social misfits back home?
That's like saying most blonde females here are Russian prostitutes.
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On the other hand, being from the USA, I take it as a point of honor to be a social "misfit". Although there seems to be some dissent brewing, in the main middle Americans (the social "fits"?) seem to be all to willing to swallow whatever hogwash the politicians and media feed them. Not all, of course, fortunately there are plenty of what the mainstream in the U.S. want to consider misfits.
One big criticism I see on this board is that there is too much conformism in Korea.
I say, here's to the misfits! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| being from the USA, I take it as a point of honor to be a social "misfit". |
You remind me of the sophomore guy I had in class back in about '82. We were discussing creativity in psych class. He asked if driving around the town square on Saturday night, hanging out the car window was creative.
I said, "No, it isn't. You are missing the core concept of creativity." |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| being from the USA, I take it as a point of honor to be a social "misfit". |
You remind me of the sophomore guy I had in class back in about '82. We were discussing creativity in psych class. He asked if driving around the town square on Saturday night, hanging out the car window was creative.
I said, "No, it isn't. You are missing the core concept of creativity." |
Yeah, that's me, alright.  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
...My objection is that people, no matter what the percentage really is, use it an an excuse to be rude.
Would it really hurt most of you to stop thinking how many Frosted Flakes boxes you can accumulate in the next 3 weeks or be late by 10 minutes on your *beep* schedule to be civil to a newbie on the street who is trying to locate an import shop where he/she can buy some Jell-o? |
Read my very first post on this thread again. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| It's perfectly OK to quibble over what 'most' means. It's been debated here many times in the 6 years I've been on the board. 'Most' ( ^^) people seem to think 1 in 3 foreigners are majorly dysfunctional...no objective standard available, but I claim the right of 'authority' due to my amazingly tolerant acceptance of whack jobs on this forum... |
I guess I must be 'disfunctional' by some standards, because I don't think the percentage is anywhere near that.  What the real percentage is, I have no idea. But in my experience most of the foreigners in Korea are nice, stable people. Of course there is a difference between being slightly nonconformist, and being a psycho.
| Quote: |
My objection is that people, no matter what the percentage really is, use it an an excuse to be rude.
Would it really hurt most of you to stop thinking how many Frosted Flakes boxes you can accumulate in the next 3 weeks or be late by 10 minutes on your *beep* schedule to be civil to a newbie on the street who is trying to locate an import shop where he/she can buy some Jell-o? |
Absolutely. If somebody stops me on the street and asks me for help with something (as long as it's not a setup for some religious hard-sell), I'm more than happy to oblige. Korean or foreigner. But I see no reason to say hello to total strangers just because they're not Korean.
You know, there seems to be a weird kind of circular logic going on here. If you assume the majority of foreigners in Korea are wackjobs, then you're naturally going to avoid saying hello to ones you pass by on the street. When you do so, they're going to be offended and think that you're going to be socially dysfunctional.
1. I don't assume that because you're a westerner you're socially dysfunctional, even if I greet you and you don't.
2. I don't assume there's a need to initate a greeting, just because you're white or black.
Works for me. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: |
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edit double post.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
[. .. But I see no reason to say hello to total strangers just because they're not Korean...
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And neither do I. Which is what I said in my first post. But the OP was asking what was the source of the closed-offness between foreigners. I gave him one possible reason which is undoubtedly true for many foreigners if not most. But I never said "all". That was patently false. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
[
1. I don't assume that because you're a westerner you're socially dysfunctional, even if I greet you and you don't.
: |
Fairly good clue there though. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
TUM wrote:
| Quote: |
| Most foreigners here |
In disagreement, Butterfly wrote:
| Quote: |
| the all foreigners in Korea are freaks and misfits angle |
Isn't there a word for changing what someone said and then criticizing them for what they didn't say? |
Well put Mr. Ya-ta Boy. I was all set to call Mr. Butterfly on this, but you've already done that.
My sincere thanks. |
Well do forgive my rhetoric; as MOS has already done, replace all with most. Anyway, my point wasn't really whether or not foreigners here are misfits, more, that there is a contradiction in your post.
| Quote: |
| Well I think, that if we have nothing in common except that we are both foreigners in Korea, what's the point in stopping to say "hi"? |
Indicating that you don't stop and say hi. Being foreigners in Korea leads to a lot in common. What is this the eslcafe.com Korea forum about again?
| Quote: |
| Most foreigners here give that sense of 'close-offed' for a reason. |
Well, you just indicated that you don't stop and say hi, that would seem pretty 'closed-offed' to me.
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| They were social misfits back home, and are nervous that another foreigner will spot them as such if they stop to talk. |
Tell it like it is.
I rarely meet these 'social misfits'. On occasion yes, and sure Korea attracts a lot of them, but they are very few and far between in my experience, and I do meet a lot of the foreigners here. A few I don't get along with, profesionally and personally but I wouldn't call them misfits just folks who see the world differently to me. It's just the oddballs you occasionally come across stick in your mind. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Being foreigners in Korea leads to a lot in common. What is this the eslcafe.com Korea forum about again?
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I agree with Butterfly on this part...
I do think people run into strangers on the street and get burned...Once burned, twice shy.
But I do also think people use that as an excuse.
I don't want to get into a 'my personal experiences are valid and yours are not' kind of thing. That is silly. It is impossible to say how many foreigners are weird and how many are just odd in an interesting and creative way. I have my theory and you have yours.
I do think the more or less normal of us need to be careful not to block out new people. I have heard more than one ( a LOT more than one) say, "I don't want to meet new people. They are going to leave in a short time. I don't want to invest the energy in making a new friend that is leaving in a short time."
I know what they mean. However, if they were professional teachers they would be used to the phenomena. Teachers go through it all the time. You invest your time, energy and caring and the kids just up and graduate and go off and have a life of their own. Rude, isn't it? You get used to it and learn not to take it as a personal rejection. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
TUM wrote:
| Quote: |
| Most foreigners here |
In disagreement, Butterfly wrote:
| Quote: |
| the all foreigners in Korea are freaks and misfits angle |
Isn't there a word for changing what someone said and then criticizing them for what they didn't say? |
Well put Mr. Ya-ta Boy. I was all set to call Mr. Butterfly on this, but you've already done that.
My sincere thanks. |
(1) Well do forgive my rhetoric; as MOS has already done, replace all with most. Anyway, my point wasn't really whether or not foreigners here are misfits, more, that there is a contradiction in your post.
| Quote: |
| Well I think, that if we have nothing in common except that we are both foreigners in Korea, what's the point in stopping to say "hi"? |
(2) Indicating that you don't stop and say hi. Being foreigners in Korea leads to a lot in common. What is this the eslcafe.com Korea forum about again?
| Quote: |
| Most foreigners here give that sense of 'close-offed' for a reason. |
(3) Well, you just indicated that you don't stop and say hi, that would seem pretty 'closed-offed' to me.
| Quote: |
| They were social misfits back home, and are nervous that another foreigner will spot them as such if they stop to talk. |
(4) Tell it like it is.
(5) I rarely meet these 'social misfits'. On occasion yes, and sure Korea attracts a lot of them, but they are very few and far between in my experience, and I do meet a lot of the foreigners here. A few I don't get along with, profesionally and personally but I wouldn't call them misfits just folks who see the world differently to me. It's just the oddballs you occasionally come across stick in your mind. |
Numbers are mine
1. "All" is VERY different from "most". They indicate two different meanings and change the post entirely. But since you agree, let's move on and talk about this alleged "contradiction".
2. No, I don't stop and say "Hi". BUT if you had read my post instead of going off on your angry rant, you would have seen that I also said I would stop and talk (were I not in a hurry) if the other person initiated a conversation. What do we have in common though? We are teachers? Not all foreigners here are teachers. We have white skin? So do millions of other people. A few similar circumstances does not equal "a lot in common". I'm sure we've all met people who we can't stand or who have nothing in common with us, except that they are teachers in Korea like us. That's hardly enough to forge a bond. If you have the same interests and likes, that is much more compelling.
3. See number 2. Just like back home I don't go up to total strangers and say "Hi". But if I have nowhere particular to go I will stop and talk should the person begin the conversation. Nothing to do with "closed-offed" I just don't care.
4. I always do and will continue to do so.
5. I must be a "freak" magnet then. Because it's been my experience if there is a freaky way-gook within 50 miles of me, he will find me. And almost inevitably then want to be my new best friend. There's nothing that "freaks" one out more (sorry for the pun) then having some stranger end a conversation with you by asking for your address and telling you that he will show up there later that night. And who doesn't even bother to ask if you have a prior engagement. And when you inform him of said prior engagement he invites himself.
But like I said before, I consider the illegal teachers here freaks as well. Kind of abnormal (freaky) to forge credentials to come and work in a foreign country. And since there are (by the numbers given on this board) more illegal teachers than legals, I would say that yes "most" foreigners are freaks. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Being foreigners in Korea leads to a lot in common. What is this the eslcafe.com Korea forum about again?
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I agree with Butterfly on this part...
I do think people run into strangers on the street and get burned...Once burned, twice shy.
But I do also think people use that as an excuse.
I don't want to get into a 'my personal experiences are valid and yours are not' kind of thing. That is silly. It is impossible to say how many foreigners are weird and how many are just odd in an interesting and creative way. I have my theory and you have yours.
(1) I do think the more or less normal of us need to be careful not to block out new people. I have heard more than one ( a LOT more than one) say, "I don't want to meet new people. They are going to leave in a short time. I don't want to invest the energy in making a new friend that is leaving in a short time."
(2) I know what they mean. However, if they were professional teachers they would be used to the phenomena. Teachers go through it all the time. You invest your time, energy and caring and the kids just up and graduate and go off and have a life of their own. Rude, isn't it? You get used to it and learn not to take it as a personal rejection. |
Numbers are mine.
1 and 2 are different situations though. In 2 you get PAID to invest time, energy and caring. In 1 you are investing all this time and energy in a relationship that isn't going to continue after the person leaves. And it's a bit different in the relationship of student-teacher as opposed to friend-friend. Your students aren't your friends. Nor do you get to choose them as opposed to your friends. You can't really equate the two. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
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This thread is starting to remind me of a group of 3~4 (foreign) friends who come to my parties and always sit at the small table off in the corner of the kitchen, EVERY time. Always the same people, always the same small cramped table -- while everyone else is mixing and moving around the house -- and they will inevitably get onto some... inconsequential issue (really, this "do you say hello or not?" discussion would be SO right up their alley  ) and just beat it and kick it to death. I mean they go on for HOURS, only getting up for potty breaks and then coming right back. Other people will be going in and out of the kitchen to fetch things all night, and that group won't have even shifted their chairs.
I'm used to it by now, but a new girlfriend who was at a party asked me (I'm interpreting & paraphrasing here):
Girl: Guru, um, who are those people in the kitchen?
Guru: That's ______, ______ and _______, and of course you've met ______ before, remember?
Girl: Well, why don't they ever come out and join the party?
Guru: Oh, you poor misguided thing, you! Don't you see? That IS the party to them! They're just not very into meeting new people at parties. I think they just like chatting with their old friends again.
Her: *thinking that over* ... But do you know what they've been talking about for the past two solid hours??
Guru: Yep. Whether it makes more sense to drive or take public transportation if you're commuting between Gangnam and Gangbuk.
Girl: And you don't think that's weird???
Guru: Sure, but they're my friends and I've known them a long time. Longer than anyone else here tonight. So it's basically this -- Love me, love my weird boring geeky friends. We're a set. 
Her: All right. 
(Unfortunately, she interpreted the word "love" all too literally and by the end of the night had propositioned every last one of my friends.  DOH!!)
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But like I said before, I consider the illegal teachers here freaks as well. Kind of abnormal (freaky) to forge credentials to come and work in a foreign country. And since there are (by the numbers given on this board) more illegal teachers than legals, I would say that yes "most" foreigners are freaks. |
So, how big is this net now, the one called "Foreigners in Korea"? Am I in it too, though I don't teach? How about the rest of us 100,000+ foreigners here who also aren't English teachers? |
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