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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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KeithInKorea wrote:
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Death sentences are things that uncivilised governments carry out.
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Just out of curiousity here, Keith, do you think that the governments of Canada and the UK circa 1960 or so were uncivilized? |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I don't mean to be insensitive, but I have to wonder if the guy would have been hanged if he had been white. |
I wonder, too. |
Are you saying that Australia would have exerted more pressure on Singapore if the guy were white? I'll admit that's what I thought when the story first broke, but that's not how it panned out. The government, the media, and a host of private organisations all went in to bat for this guy in a big way. It's been front page news across the country, and the guy's ethnicity has hardly even been mentioned. He's been referred to first and foremost as an Australian at every turn. Holding a nation wide minute silence was even seriously debated. I believe the only avenue left for the government would have been to impose economic sanctions, and I doubt they would have done that even for a blonde-haired blue-eyed surfer boy. I've found the whole thing to be a step forward for race relations in Australia in that no one, except for you guys, has seriously suggested that this man is dead because Australians are a bunch of white supremacists. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| well they were just throwing out the idea. Both are American and not as familiar as you about the story. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Cthulhu wrote: |
| By the same token I'm not shedding a tear that Corby is still in the slammer. |
What about David Hicks? |
No tears there either, though there's no denying the U.S. government should speed things along and finish the proceedings. Corby's case has run its course, Hicks' hasn't. It's also a bit silly they won't count time served should he be convicted. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| keithinkorea wrote: |
| Death sentences should not happen. Death sentences are things that uncivilised governments carry out. |
| keithinkorea wrote: |
Personally I think you should only get the death penalty in the US if you voted republican last time around and commited a heinous crime.
The death penalty is a disgusting barbaric hangover of less civilised times. All the worst countries in the world have it and non of the best do. |
Troll. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Are you saying that Australia would have exerted more pressure on Singapore if the guy were white?... in that no one, except for you guys, has seriously suggested that this man is dead because Australians are a bunch of white supremacists.
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Ummmm...no one but you seems to think the original question was aimed at Australia. When I wrote it, I was thinking of Singapore. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Are you saying that Australia would have exerted more pressure on Singapore if the guy were white?... in that no one, except for you guys, has seriously suggested that this man is dead because Australians are a bunch of white supremacists.
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Ummmm...no one but you seems to think the original question was aimed at Australia. When I wrote it, I was thinking of Singapore. |
My bad. I'm still a little slow on the upshot, though. Why would Singapore be less inclined to execute a white Australian than they would an ethnically Asian Australian? |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm? Well how come so many expats seem to say FREQUENTLY when it comes to Korean culture....WHEN IN ROME...blah blah blah and how we should respect their "way" of doing things....pc pc pc. Well this is how they do things in Singapore.
In Singapore they hang drug dealers and cane people who spray graffitii on walls. That's the deal. Why would anybody be so STUPID, YES STUPID to do something like this. Getting caught you might have to forfeit your life. He made that decision and paid for it with his life. Maybe he thought his Aussie citizenship would spare him the worst punishment but it didn't. Being American didn't save Michael Faye either. Why should Americans, Aussies, Brits etc. be ABOVE THEIR LAWS????? Do you think you have some special privlege are you better than the average person who lives in Singapore?
Are the laws barbaric ....probably. Are they ineffective...don't know. The government let people protest and people protested in Austraila and the like and good for them, they should let their feelings be known. But in the end HE WAS A DRUG DEALER AND BROUGHT DRUGS INTO A COUNTRY THAT AIN'T TO FRIENDLY ABOUT IT.
So if I go to Singapore make mental note: Don't carry drugs and don't spray graffitti on stuff. Seems easy enough to figure out. If you go to foreign countries and you carry drugs and get caught...well ...#1. You are stupid. #2. It sucks to be you. #3. Save your crocodile tears...YOU PLAY...YOU PAY.
Jade (mean girl) |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Why would Singapore be less inclined to execute a white Australian than they would an ethnically Asian Australian?
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I was asking a question about the race of the guy, not his nationality. I just said I wondered if the guy had been white, would he have been treated the same? I know sometimes governments make an example of a foreigner and at other times foreigners get special treatment. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I have no sympathy for those in Korea, Singapore, Indonesia, et al that buy/sell/use drugs despite knowing the harsh penalties and get caught. You took the risks. There are a lot of people dying in our own Western nations from drug addictions, starvation, disease, spousal violence. Do we need to shed a tear for drug runners? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Most Canadians supported the death penalty back in the 80's but the government in their wisdom (or lack of balls as the case may be--they probably had an eye towards the courts and the Charter) decided that a free vote on the issue would be caving in to the demands of the great unwashed, er, the general public. |
Oh, please. The polls in favor of the death penalty were generally taken after a high profile crime, generally the kidnapping and murder of a young girl. Bill C-84 was voted 131 to 124 in 1976 (not in the 80's), and it was a 'free vote', just like any other bill that is voted in parliament. They voted again in 1987 against reinstating the death penalty, another free vote. Whether you like it or not, we elected the government to make such decisions for us. It's their responsibilty to pass laws that will protect the human rights of their citizens. In any case, it's a rather disingenuous arguement to complain about the process after the fact that one's side of the debate has lost the vote.
The fact remains that the last 12 people that were executed in Canada were members of minorities (the poor, the sexual and racial minorities). There is a direct correlation between social and economic status and sentencing. Would you feel justice had been served if guys like David Milgard, Guy Paul Morin, or Donald Marshall had been executed shortly after their trials?
Besides, the death penalty was carried out by hanging only in Canada. You need to know that death isn't swift during a hanging. After someone is hung, their heart will beat for up to 10 minutes because the spinal chord is rarely broken as it is intended to be. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Most Canadians supported the death penalty back in the 80's but the government in their wisdom (or lack of balls as the case may be--they probably had an eye towards the courts and the Charter) decided that a free vote on the issue would be caving in to the demands of the great unwashed, er, the general public. |
Oh, please. The polls in favor of the death penalty were generally taken after a high profile crime, generally the kidnapping and murder of a young girl. |
The numbers were consistently around 70% for many years and remained so as late as a 1995 poll, so its hardly a case of timing the polls for instances of murders such as the example you give. It's not as if murder has ever gone away in Canada, has it?
| Quote: |
| Bill C-84 was voted 131 to 124 in 1976 (not in the 80's), and it was a 'free vote', just like any other bill that is voted in parliament. They voted again in 1987 against reinstating the death penalty, another free vote. |
MP's voted according to their personal views, not those of their constituents--not much of an improvement on towing the party line. If they aren't representing their constituents then the only people the so-called "free" vote benefits is themselves, as if the rest of the country doesn't exist.
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| Whether you like it or not, we elected the government to make such decisions for us. |
If I elected politicians to willfully ignore a consistent majority of public opinion on such an issue I might as well have put on my best Che Guevera shirt and joined the revolution because that's a poor excuse for representative democracy. It sounds more like paternalism--exactly what qualifications to politicians have to become the moral arbiters in place of the people on an issue where the majority showed a firm and consistent viewpoint?
| Quote: |
| It's their responsibilty to pass laws that will protect the human rights of their citizens. |
It's nice that the government is protecting the human rights of the guilty who take the life of others seeing as its too late to protect the rights of the innocent whose lives were taken by the aforementioned guilty. Just as long as we have our priorities straight, eh?
| Quote: |
| In any case, it's a rather disingenuous arguement to complain about the process after the fact that one's side of the debate has lost the vote. |
It's perfectly fine to complain if the will of the majority was ignored and supplanted by 148 politicians including a bloc of Quebec Conservatives who essentially killed it on their own.
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| The fact remains that the last 12 people that were executed in Canada were members of minorities (the poor, the sexual and racial minorities). There is a direct correlation between social and economic status and sentencing. |
Interesting "fact" you have there. Arthur Lucas and Robert Turpin were the last two men executed in Canada. Just out of curiosity, which minorities did they belong to? And as far as poverty goes, Lucas carried out the murder of an informer and his girlfriend, indicating membership in the mob. Poor Lucas? Turpin killed a policeman to avoid arrest for armed robbery; how does that relate to his victimhood?
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| Would you feel justice had been served if guys like David Milgard, Guy Paul Morin, or Donald Marshall had been executed shortly after their trials? |
Advances in DNA testing and forensics over the past 20 years are making this more unlikely, which is precisely the reason both Morin and Milgard were exonerated. The lengthy appeal process in cases of murder guarantees no one is executed shortly after their trials.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the death penalty was carried out by hanging only in Canada. You need to know that death isn't swift during a hanging. After someone is hung, their heart will beat for up to 10 minutes because the spinal chord is rarely broken as it is intended to be. |
Once again, you show a fine empathy for the convicted, but I wonder how quick the deaths of their victims were. Quite frankly, I have a hard time generating sympathy here. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Most Canadians supported the death penalty back in the 80's but the government in their wisdom (or lack of balls as the case may be--they probably had an eye towards the courts and the Charter) decided that a free vote on the issue would be caving in to the demands of the great unwashed, er, the general public. |
Oh, please. The polls in favor of the death penalty were generally taken after a high profile crime, generally the kidnapping and murder of a young girl. |
The numbers were consistently around 70% for many years and remained so as late as a 1995 poll, so its hardly a case of timing the polls for instances of murders such as the example you give. It's not as if murder has ever gone away in Canada, has it?
| Quote: |
| Bill C-84 was voted 131 to 124 in 1976 (not in the 80's), and it was a 'free vote', just like any other bill that is voted in parliament. They voted again in 1987 against reinstating the death penalty, another free vote. |
MP's voted according to their personal views, not those of their constituents--not much of an improvement on towing the party line. If they aren't representing their constituents then the only people the so-called "free" vote benefits is themselves, as if the rest of the country doesn't exist.
| Quote: |
| Whether you like it or not, we elected the government to make such decisions for us. |
If I elected politicians to willfully ignore a consistent majority of public opinion on such an issue I might as well have put on my best Che Guevera shirt and joined the revolution because that's a poor excuse for representative democracy. It sounds more like paternalism--exactly what qualifications to politicians have to become the moral arbiters in place of the people on an issue where the majority showed a firm and consistent viewpoint?
| Quote: |
| It's their responsibilty to pass laws that will protect the human rights of their citizens. |
It's nice that the government is protecting the human rights of the guilty who take the life of others seeing as its too late to protect the rights of the innocent whose lives were taken by the aforementioned guilty. Just as long as we have our priorities straight, eh?
| Quote: |
| In any case, it's a rather disingenuous arguement to complain about the process after the fact that one's side of the debate has lost the vote. |
It's perfectly fine to complain if the will of the majority was ignored and supplanted by 148 politicians including a bloc of Quebec Conservatives who essentially killed it on their own.
| Quote: |
| The fact remains that the last 12 people that were executed in Canada were members of minorities (the poor, the sexual and racial minorities). There is a direct correlation between social and economic status and sentencing. |
Interesting "fact" you have there. Arthur Lucas and Robert Turpin were the last two men executed in Canada. Just out of curiosity, which minorities did they belong to? And as far as poverty goes, Lucas carried out the murder of an informer and his girlfriend, indicating membership in the mob. Poor Lucas? Turpin killed a policeman to avoid arrest for armed robbery; how does that relate to his victimhood?
| Quote: |
| Would you feel justice had been served if guys like David Milgard, Guy Paul Morin, or Donald Marshall had been executed shortly after their trials? |
Advances in DNA testing and forensics over the past 20 years are making this more unlikely, which is precisely the reason both Morin and Milgard were exonerated. The lengthy appeal process in cases of murder guarantees no one is executed shortly after their trials.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the death penalty was carried out by hanging only in Canada. You need to know that death isn't swift during a hanging. After someone is hung, their heart will beat for up to 10 minutes because the spinal chord is rarely broken as it is intended to be. |
Once again, you show a fine empathy for the convicted, but I wonder how quick the deaths of their victims were. Quite frankly, I have a hard time generating sympathy here. |
Paternalism or not, a true test of the human rights condition in a nation is how it treats its minorities...criminals being one of these. Sometimes protecting minorities involves acting in spite of the wishes of the constituency. Besides, don't you know that polls are for dogs?
By the way, Donald Marshall was released after the real killer bragged about how he got away with murder to a reporter. You also need to read up on the Coffin affair. Obviously, DNA evidence does not solve the problem of false testimony and a biased court. In all likelihood, there remains people incarcerated in Canadian prisons who are innocent of the crimes they were found guilty of commiting. The justice system is far from being infalliable, which is sufficient reason to abolish the death penalty.
And also, to answer you question of Arthur Lucas and Robert Turpin's socio-economic status, they were poor. Moreover, Lucas wasn't even Canadian. He was an American from Georgia. "We is lucky ... if we were on the street, I could be killed by a car and I wouldn't be ready to meet my Maker." (Arthur Lucas before his execution) Lucky indeed... his head was nearly torn off during the execution because the hangman's miscalculations. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Whether you like it or not, we elected the government to make such decisions for us. |
If I elected politicians to willfully ignore a consistent majority of public opinion on such an issue I might as well have put on my best Che Guevera shirt and joined the revolution because that's a poor excuse for representative democracy. It sounds more like paternalism--exactly what qualifications to politicians have to become the moral arbiters in place of the people on an issue where the majority showed a firm and consistent viewpoint?
| Quote: |
| It's their responsibilty to pass laws that will protect the human rights of their citizens. |
It's nice that the government is protecting the human rights of the guilty who take the life of others seeing as its too late to protect the rights of the innocent whose lives were taken by the aforementioned guilty. Just as long as we have our priorities straight, eh?
| Quote: |
| In any case, it's a rather disingenuous arguement to complain about the process after the fact that one's side of the debate has lost the vote. |
It's perfectly fine to complain if the will of the majority was ignored and supplanted by 148 politicians including a bloc of Quebec Conservatives who essentially killed it on their own.
| Quote: |
| The fact remains that the last 12 people that were executed in Canada were members of minorities (the poor, the sexual and racial minorities). There is a direct correlation between social and economic status and sentencing. |
Interesting "fact" you have there. Arthur Lucas and Robert Turpin were the last two men executed in Canada. Just out of curiosity, which minorities did they belong to? And as far as poverty goes, Lucas carried out the murder of an informer and his girlfriend, indicating membership in the mob. Poor Lucas? Turpin killed a policeman to avoid arrest for armed robbery; how does that relate to his victimhood?
| Quote: |
| Would you feel justice had been served if guys like David Milgard, Guy Paul Morin, or Donald Marshall had been executed shortly after their trials? |
Advances in DNA testing and forensics over the past 20 years are making this more unlikely, which is precisely the reason both Morin and Milgard were exonerated. The lengthy appeal process in cases of murder guarantees no one is executed shortly after their trials.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the death penalty was carried out by hanging only in Canada. You need to know that death isn't swift during a hanging. After someone is hung, their heart will beat for up to 10 minutes because the spinal chord is rarely broken as it is intended to be. |
Once again, you show a fine empathy for the convicted, but I wonder how quick the deaths of their victims were. Quite frankly, I have a hard time generating sympathy here. |
Paternalism or not, a true test of the human rights condition in a nation is how it treats its minorities...criminals being one of these. Sometimes protecting minorities involves acting in spite of the wishes of the constituency. Besides, don't you know that polls are for dogs?
By the way, Donald Marshall was released after the real killer bragged about how he got away with murder to a reporter. You also need to read up on the Coffin affair. Obviously, DNA evidence does not solve the problem of false testimony and a biased court. In all likelihood, there remains people incarcerated in Canadian prisons who are innocent of the crimes they were found guilty of commiting. The justice system is far from being infalliable, which is sufficient reason to abolish the death penalty.
And also, to answer you question of Arthur Lucas and Robert Turpin's socio-economic status, they were poor. Moreover, Lucas wasn't even Canadian. He was an American from Georgia. "We is lucky ... if we were on the street, I could be killed by a car and I wouldn't be ready to meet my Maker." (Arthur Lucas before his execution) Lucky indeed... his head was nearly torn off during the execution because the hangman's miscalculations. |
Well then, I suppose I should attempt to feel more sympathy towards the perpetrator of a premeditated hit on an informant and his girlfriend seeing as the poor perpetrator was an American of all things, to say nothing of the abject poverty that forced him to commit premeditated murder...but I think I'll stop here as it's clear our sympathies lie in different directions on this issue. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| seeing as the poor perpetrator was an American of all things |
What does nationality have to do with it? |
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