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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Grotto,
Of course you omitted the qualification of my statement in your quote.
Nevertheless I will respond. Working with your Korean colleague happens on many levels and doesn't necessarily mean they are teaching the curriculum with you (although at the highest level of co-teaching, you both should have the same command of the curriculum and team teach). The Korean English teacher can help plan, give input about the lesson, forewarn about cultural differences, be helping lower level students in seperate groups, participate in station teaching, add to your own stature and respect vis a vis the students, monitor and assess, organize field trips, manage in the classroom and of course, also show the face of a korean in the classroom speaking English (a view in the mirror they need).
Also I might paraphrase your statement for clarity, replacing Korean for Native speaker...
If you have a quality native speaking teacher and if they are willing to put in the time and effort and if their command of English teaching curriculum is at a level that they aren't teaching "lets pass the time" . THEN you may a point.
It's a two way street, don't put a one way sign on it...................
My point was that it is all about attitude and of course mentoring the Korean teacher for the years ahead......and of course your own professional growth which can't happen without the proper relationship with co-workers.........
Co-teaching has its drawbacks but mostly in the form of improper social communication, when it occurs. The attitude I was responding too was definitely not one which would foster a good coteaching classroom.
DD[/b][/quote] |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Apparently you have never co-taught with a Korean coteacher.
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| The Korean English teacher can help plan, give input about the lesson, forewarn about cultural differences, be helping lower level students in seperate groups, participate in station teaching, add to your own stature and respect vis a vis the students, monitor and assess, organize field trips, manage in the classroom and of course, also show the face of a korean in the classroom speaking English (a view in the mirror they need). |
The key word in your statement here is 'can'. In a perfect world this might be true....in Korean public schools it is not!
In my experience I often found the co-teacher to be a burden and a distruption...they are not trained to co-teach, their management skills are hit and miss(mostly hit and hit again), they had no interest in assessing the students, didnt want to do field trips and spoke little 'English" in the classroom...although their bastardised form of Konglish most likely did wonders  for the students pronunciation.
In your first post you qualified how the training needed to be there in order for the system to work...the training and support is not there and there-in lies the crux of the problem. Unless the Korean admin pulls thier pointy little heads out of thier dumbasses then the problem will never be resolved. So it falls to the FT to continue to do all of the work, take all of the blame and muddle along as best they can. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Grotto,
I have cotaught and coteach with 3 Korean teachers. They have all had their good and bad points regarding their ability to teach (as you would put it). BUT, I have always maintained it is my duty to involve them in the teaching process and classroom. Irregardless of how pissed and annoyed and frustrated I am at what they do in the classroom. My presence is for the benefit of the Korean education system as a whole...not for my own little comfort level.
You are right. There is no perfect world and many Korean teachers CANT do those things I mentioned.....But there are many things we native speakers CANT do. We have to work with them the best we can and make it a thing of mutual growth, professional development. Not an attitude of "shit your incompetent, go sit in the corner...."
DD |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| In your first post you qualified how the training needed to be there in order for the system to work...the training and support is not there and there-in lies the crux of the problem. |
You continually cite everyone else as being the problem due to their lack of training despite everyone but you having education degrees and training. Further to this, you advocate burning bridges and not working together with the people who have education degrees and training as being a preferred solution.
I am curious as to how you qualify your advice you are giving here. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Gord you poor pathetic loser. 
I do have an education degree.
I never said 'dont try to work with the Korean co-teachers'
I simply said that in my experience it does not work. The KT's command of English is by far inferior to mine(and most FT's)/ They are not willing to try different approaches to teaching and are embarrassed to use thier English in a FT's presence...this is a common problem among all Koreans...not just the teachers.
Perhaps you are still too obtuse to understand what goes on in the 'real' world.
I myself am curious as to why you continue to try to pick fights with me  Mommy not paying enough attention to you?  |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
| In your first post you qualified how the training needed to be there in order for the system to work...the training and support is not there and there-in lies the crux of the problem. |
You continually cite everyone else as being the problem due to their lack of training despite everyone but you having education degrees and training. Further to this, you advocate burning bridges and not working together with the people who have education degrees and training as being a preferred solution.
I am curious as to how you qualify your advice you are giving here. |
In my year of reading Dave's I've got countless useful tips from Grotto (and the odd thing I've disagreed with) and absolutely none from you, dude. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Gord you poor pathetic loser. |
Why is it you continally toss out these little insults when all parties know that when you try to go toe to toe with me, you get mauled as you simply aren't in the same league. Just curious.
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| I do have an education degree. |
Is that so? Last time the subject of who has what degrees, you didn't. But fine, I can pretend for this exercise.
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I never said 'dont try to work with the Korean co-teachers'
I simply said that in my experience it does not work. The KT's command of English is by far inferior to mine(and most FT's)/ They are not willing to try different approaches to teaching and are embarrassed to use thier English in a FT's presence...this is a common problem among all Koreans...not just the teachers. |
I was unaware that being able to speak English meant you were automatically a better teacher, especially since written English provides a far better foundation for correct usage. Why is it you feel that your better pronunciation now automatically translates into you being a better teacher when the evidence does not support that claim.
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| Perhaps you are still too obtuse to understand what goes on in the 'real' world. |
I saved 200 jobs this year and generated nearly $50M in direct sales for Korean technology companies in addition to building new businesses and appearing in several technology and men's magazines. I also served as a focal point for Japanese rage and sorrow against a Korean "screw-Japan" display of hate which brought the hammer down on how Korean schoosl are run. And I spent a week homeless in Japan for kicks. In contrast, you want to tell me about being in the real world from behind a computer and a job where the sole qualification was being white after you made up claims that you posted on this and another unnamed forum about your housing conditions and salary which were both untrue?
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| I myself am curious as to why you continue to try to pick fights with me Mommy not paying enough attention to you? |
I'm not picking a fight. I am curious why you tend to lash out at everyone as being the problem while offering solutions which do not appear sound. Much like your advice on contracts, it tends to be quite poor so I was curious what you were using as a logic foundation.
In short, your advice is likely poor and you offer no evidence as to why anyone should accept it. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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First and foremost though, admin should be not just giving ultimatums but rather should be proactive in "cheerleading" this teaching method.
First, admin should have a viable plan as to When/Who/What is cotaught. They should provide all teachers with training in how to coteach. Practical workshops on the dynamics, dos and don'ts of working with a colleague in the classroom, sharing a classroom. they should give ongoing guidance to teachers and increased planning time (very necessary).
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While I agree this would be the norm in a western public school, I am very curious if it has happened in even ONE school here in Korea. I know it has not been my experience nor has it been the experience of anyone I know.
In my present situation, my co-teacher is an unlicensed first-year teacher who has already decided that teaching is not for her. Our administration has even less knowledge about team teaching than she does. Nevertheless, I team teach more than half of my classes.
Education theory du jour always sounds good till it gets applied in a real classroom. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Is that so? Last time the subject of who has what degrees, you didn't. But fine, I can pretend for this exercise. |
Please gord refresh my memory.....just where did I not claim to have an education degree?....cant remember?.....thats because your memory is shot. You continually throw out crap statements like this and then try to run with them....you seem to be getting caught in more and more of your lies.
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| I was unaware that being able to speak English meant you were automatically a better teacher, especially since written English provides a far better foundation for correct usage. Why is it you feel that your better pronunciation now automatically translates into you being a better teacher when the evidence does not support that claim. |
Being a native speaker gives me a great advantage in the understanding of English over a foriegner...both spoken and written. While you are correct in stating that written English does provide a better foundation for correct usage.....the majority of Koreans dont have near the expertise of a native speaker in this arena as well, or do you want to argue that pointless point as well. My command and expertise of English has far surpassed that of any Korean I have worked with....that is one thing that makes me a much better English teacher than any of them!
My claims about my housing and salary were and are true. I was making a little over 2.6 mil won a month and had a large two bedroom apartment last year....my friends who visited my abode can vouch for me. Whether you believe me or not is incosequential.
My advice is what it is...based on experience. Your advice is to bend over and take it up the rectum. I have yet to see any of your advice benefitting anyone in any way shape or form! Oh wait a minute you saved 200 jobs are these magical jobs? Your appearences in magazines geek of the week? Vidiot gamer of the year?
Gord your ego holds no bounds...you are pathetic....you were pathetic and you will continue to be pathetic....get over yourself loser!
Last edited by Grotto on Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| I saved 200 jobs this year and generated nearly $50M in direct sales for Korean technology companies in addition to building new businesses and appearing in several technology and men's magazines. I also served as a focal point for Japanese rage and sorrow against a Korean "screw-Japan" display of hate which brought the hammer down on how Korean schoosl are run. And I spent a week homeless in Japan for kicks. |
...and to the best of my memory, provided no useful advice about teaching kids in Korea whatsoever. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| ...and to the best of my memory, provided no useful advice about teaching kids in Korea whatsoever. |
Zing! Your ability to take things out of context and craft them into an insult is great indeed. Have you thought about taking this talent and making money off of it?
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| In my year of reading Dave's I've got countless useful tips from Grotto (and the odd thing I've disagreed with) and absolutely none from you, dude. |
Perhaps you should invest more time into reading my posts where I cover all things legal and technical to provide people with the answers they need to know. For example, the thread I posted in before this one had me explaining how to configure one's router so that torrents will work correctly at maximum speed which is something few people have done.
Though I admit my posts where I give useful advice tend to be more boring that conversations involving verbal fistacuffs. Will you now be apologizing for the false claim that I make no useful posts, or will you either ignore my reply or simply claim that it happened once so it doesn't count thus forcing me to bring up more examples of my fine advice? Which train are we getting on? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Please gord refresh my memory.....just where did I not claim to have an education degree?....cant remember?.....thats because your memory is shot. You continually throw out crap statements like this and then try to run with them....you seem to be getting caught in more and more of your lies. |
I would provide a link, but it was a post on a forum that must not be named. Though I would ask that you not accuse me of tossing out unsupported statements given my history of backing up almost all of what I claim is true compared to your track record of no supporting evidence and claims that presented evidence contradicting your claims is outright wrong.
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| Being a native speaker gives me a great advantage in the understanding of English over a foriegner...both spoken and written. |
So you can understand people speaking English, so what? This does not automatically make you a better teacher. This is a widely known observation to which you offer no evidence is false.
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| While you arecorrect in stating that English does provide a better foundation for correct usage.....the majority of Koreans dont have near the expertise of a native speaker in this arena as well, or do you want to argue that pointless point as well. My command and expertise of English has far surpassed that of any Korean I have worked with....that is one thing that makes me a much better English teacher than any of them! |
Your English usage and grammar are grade-school at best. Again I will point out that being able to use English does not mean you are able to teach English.
Though when making bold claims about your "command (of) and expertise of (sic) English", you might want to actually use a paragraph somewhat close to perfect rather than the horrid paragraph you've given us here.
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| My claims about my housing and salary were and are true. I was making a little over 2.6 mil won a month and had a large two bedroom apartment last year....my friends who visited my abode can vouch for me. Whether you believe me or not is incosequential. |
You had originally claimed more than 3M, then down to 2.7, and that you were given a house rather than an apartment. Truth being that you were making less and you were living with your boss in his house while you were waiting to be given an apartment.
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| My advice is what it is...based on experience. Your advice is to bend over and take it up the rectum. I have yet to see any of your advice benefitting anyone in any way shape or form! Oh wait a minute you saved 200 jobs are these magical jobs? Your appearences in magazines geek of the week? Vidiot gamer of the year? |
Your advice isn't based on experience. Most of the time it's "what I would do if I was king of world." You tell people what they want to hear, not what the law is.
Do we not remember your advice to use one's camera to take pictures up the skirts of middle and high-school girls and then threaten to show everyone the pictures if they misbehaved? Something you claimed to have done. Yes, your advice is obviously sound and infallible.
As for your insults, you really should try a bit harder. I've received hate-mail from children that delivered better insults along with better grammar.
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| Gord your ego holds no bounds...you are pathetic....you were pathetic and you will continue to be pathetic....get over yourself loser! |
I have admitted, and continue to admit, I am a sad, lonely man. Women hate me and children push me down stairs before taking my lunch money. Though as sad as that is, it's still a step above using an alias on an Internet forum to toss out childish insults and post up incorrect advice so that I could pretend to be a better person. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| ...and to the best of my memory, provided no useful advice about teaching kids in Korea whatsoever. |
Zing! Your ability to take things out of context and craft them into an insult is great indeed. Have you thought about taking this talent and making money off of it?
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| In my year of reading Dave's I've got countless useful tips from Grotto (and the odd thing I've disagreed with) and absolutely none from you, dude. |
Perhaps you should invest more time into reading my posts where I cover all things legal and technical to provide people with the answers they need to know. For example, the thread I posted in before this one had me explaining how to configure one's router so that torrents will work correctly at maximum speed which is something few people have done.
Though I admit my posts where I give useful advice tend to be more boring that conversations involving verbal fistacuffs. Will you now be apologizing for the false claim that I make no useful posts, or will you either ignore my reply or simply claim that it happened once so it doesn't count thus forcing me to bring up more examples of my fine advice? Which train are we getting on? |
Perhaps if I were interested in routers your advice would be helpful, but to the best of my knowledge I recount no useful advice re: teaching, unlike most of the other contributors to this thread, sorry. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Dont worry Yu-Bum-Suk...Gord is pathetic...he simply cries out for attention from time to time..usually by attacking me.(because no one really cares about his router crap)
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| So you can understand people speaking English, so what? This does not automatically make you a better teacher. This is a widely known observation to which you offer no evidence is false. |
So what you are saying here gord is that native speakers do not make better teachers than teachers who learnt it as a second language? 
Perhaps you could provide some evidence to support your so called 'widely known observation' A native speaker will always have an advantage in the knowledge of their own language...they will understand the nuances of it far better than most(the key word being most) foreigners ever will.
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| Why is it you continally toss out these little insults |
Because it seems like its the only language you understand and remember....sadly 
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| Though I would ask that you not accuse me of tossing out unsupported statements given my history of backing up almost all of what I claim is true compared to your track record of no supporting evidence and claims that presented evidence contradicting your claims is outright wrong. |
Actually gord your track record has gone to hell in a handbasket over the last year or so. Everytime you start getting your ass handed to you, you disappear...Oh I know...you are off saving jobs saving your company millions of won and becoming an ubergeek  You make claims....you dont back them up and then you bugger off!
[quote]Your English usage and grammar are grade-school at best.
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Riigghhhttt. I guess this is your attempt at an insult.
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I've received hate-mail from children that delivered better insults along with better grammar.
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That you have received hate mail I have no doubt....if any being on the planet is deserving of hatemail it is the ego known as gord! |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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While I agree this would be the norm in a western public school, I am very curious if it has happened in even ONE school here in Korea. I know it has not been my experience nor has it been the experience of anyone I know.
In my present situation, my co-teacher is an unlicensed first-year teacher who has already decided that teaching is not for her. Our administration has even less knowledge about team teaching than she does. Nevertheless, I team teach more than half of my classes.
Education theory du jour always sounds good till it gets applied in a real classroom.
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I agree with you and I think we are on the same page here...that is the problem, for both Korean teachers and native speakers....... I am presently working on a study with a SNU professor -- I have feedback from 50 teachers who have filled out a survey online...the survey will give us data about the coteaching relationship based on Gately's levels of competency.....Korean teachers will get the translated survey in the new year.....But beyond that, it has been a haphazard process without any attention to making it get off to a good start. I have even heard many calls in the literature on coteaching for coteachers to decide THEMSELVES who they will coteach with. This makes sense rather than throwing two "maybe" compatible people together....
But it isn't perfect -- I just wanted to point out that whatever the case, we should try to work with the Korean teacher. working with them will effect more change in the long run and benefit Korean kids and their English fluency than working without them. (even if it only helps the Korean teacher's English level). I have been getting my coteachers doing mini lessons and teaching small groups in the same classroom. They have been trying my methods and really are changing....we are listening to each other...
But don't think I don't sympathize Yu Bum Suk, I have gotten so many emails from disgruntled foreign teachers. It sucks and as a last resort, some of these teachers have to duck and run.....mostly because they were thrown in a no win situation by admin.....
DD |
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