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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Do any of you know where the large demonstration/protest about NK and human rights will be? I read it is taking place on Sunday, but I don't know where.
I'd like to go and take some pictures. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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At the human rights conference:
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...the highest ranking official ever to defect from North Korea, Hwang Jang-yop, told the conference that the South was home to apologists for the North as a result of North Korean propaganda.
"We have people who choose to defend the North and oppose the United States only from hearing what [North Korean leader] Kim Jong-il and his group say," he said. "This is a disgrace." |
From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4509484.stm
This ought to be music to the ears of a lot of people on Dave's. Not all Koreans are blindly anti-American or view North Korea through rose-tinted lenses after all. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| The trouble is, sanctions and isolation have been the policy for 50 years and it didn't work. At some point, something new has to be tried. |
Yeah. The more you isolate the DPRK, the more likely it'll sell its technology to even bigger threats.
the DPRK ain't going to do squat besides that and sell narcotics (oh no! not that!).
It's like Saddam's Iraq: just a bunch of hype with some sick *beep* running the place. |
To Ya-Ta and BB:
What do you recommend as something new? The DPRK's policy is military-first. They feel that investing in the military will be the way to make their society productive, possibly because they defaulted on all their debts back in the 1970s and exporting insecurity and contraband is the only way to make money. What would the new solution be? Ask the Soviets who supported the Regime how they felt about the Hermit Kingdom.
It's not hype to suggest we should monitor NK shipping closely. After all, all shipping coming from out of NK docks first in a few ports in Japan, South Korea, or China first. Considering that North Korea is essentially a crime-driven state with nuclear weapons, I think it's logical that we should spend at least as much effort tracking what they are shipping as we did with the Libyans.
You're right, BB, we shouldn't isolate the North Korea. But look at the stuff the regime has been saying and tell me it isn't DPRK policy to isolate themselves. That right there should be enough for us to eschew any sort of cavalier attitude about what they might be up to. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Kuros,
I don't claim to be a geopolitical strategist with all the answers. I do know that NK has been dealing in counterfeit money and drugs for a long time. I also figure that they are smart enough not to ship stuff out if the US Navy is sitting off the coast to interdict them. It is not impossible for them to ship through China and Russia. They know and we know that the US Navy is NOT going to stop ships from those countries.
I don't know what the solution is.
I do think it's worth looking at the changes that have happened over the last few years in NK and think about ways to encourage those changes. It's also worth looking at ways to destablize the government there through radios that can pick up signals from outside the country.
When I said the old methods have failed I was responding to the first few posts on this thread who seemed to be saying to repeat the old measures.
What I would like to see, but know it will never happen, is a US president making a big speech in favor of reunification of China and Korea...but only after the communist governments reform enough that human rights and democracy are guaranteed to Taiwan and South Korea. Put the blame for our resistence squarely on the unacceptable government forms and make a big deal of it. Toot the horn of reunification + the ideals we used to stand for as a nation. Take back the moral high ground (if it isn't too late because of the behavior of this administration). |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Not all Koreans are blindly anti-American or view North Korea through rose-tinted lenses after all. |
Most of the Koreans I know here in Seoul have a far more complex view of the situation vis-a-vis the North than any westerner I have talked to. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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What I can say is,
Alot of the viewpointes shared by alot of young people in this country come from the one-sided media that paints a picture of North Korea as a "misguided brother" (A term southerners use alot when mentioning about the people in the north.)
It is very fair to say that they can ship stuff out from China and Russia "turning a blind eye to it", of course. But sooner or later, backdoor meetings conducted by the State Department will slowly close those doors (almost certain in Russia's case, of course)
The world can't keep the status quo, especially in this repsect for very long. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Screw North Korea!!~! |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| lastat06513 wrote: |
North Korea and its government are nothing but utter morons.
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not really. It's been in power and stable since the end of the Korean war. It has survived the fall of the Soviet Union.
It might be a lot of things but moronic? No. |
It might be a lot of things but "stable" is the last word that should be used to describe North Korea. They were only able to survive through massive handouts by the former Soviet Union and China. Even today were China to turn off the oil taps, North Korea would collapse. A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable". |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable".
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "stable". If stable is taken to mean "hasn't collapsed and isn't likely to", then North Korea could probably be called stable. But if stable is taken to mean "capabale of holding itself together without assistance", than North Korea probably can't be called stable.
I tend toward the first definiton of "stable". When we say "this child's life is stable", it doesn't preclude the fact that his parents or other agents provide him with most of the material benefits neccessary for a stable life. And while I doubt that definiton of "stability" is what the Kims had in mind when they developed their "self-reliance" philosophy, I also suspect that at this point KJI is quite happy to settle for that. |
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Bee Positive
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Screw North Korea!!~! |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| lastat06513 wrote: |
North Korea and its government are nothing but utter morons.
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not really. It's been in power and stable since the end of the Korean war. It has survived the fall of the Soviet Union.
It might be a lot of things but moronic? No. |
It might be a lot of things but "stable" is the last word that should be used to describe North Korea. They were only able to survive through massive handouts by the former Soviet Union and China. Even today were China to turn off the oil taps, North Korea would collapse. A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable". |
Don't forget: South Korea also imports almost all its energy and most (I think!) of its food.
Is South Korea stable?
The same could be said for Switzerland, by the way. Switzerland by general consensus IS stable, in no small part because it takes care of its own defense, and is never at war with any of its neighbors. South Korea has managed to get that time-proven formula precisely BACK-ASSWARDS by NOT taking care of its own defense while simultaneously maintaining a permanent state of war with the North. Sheer stupidity, if you ask me.
I think that we're being very shortsighted and unimaginative if we latch onto the "North poor/South rich" paradigm as though it were somehow eternal and/or inevitable. Any major disruption in the world economy could, arguably, send South Korea REELING, and in way that would make 1997 look like a tea party. Just imagine a 1929-style collapse of the Western economies knocking out SK's exports overnight. It's not impossible that you could find millions of hungry South Koreans (hunger would come pretty quickly if the money dried up!) wondering if they might not be better off . . . err . . . up North. Pyongyang at least TRIES to feed its citizens, after all, while the South's Social Darwinist capitalism will shake it to its foundations if the economy should ever come unstuck.
Meanwhile, this explosively on-fire Chinese economy MIGHT just spill over into North Korea, under the right set of circumstances.
You've only got to look at how radically everything has changed here within JUST the past few decades to see that radical economic change IS possible.
BEE POSITIVE |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Screw North Korea!!~! |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| lastat06513 wrote: |
North Korea and its government are nothing but utter morons.
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not really. It's been in power and stable since the end of the Korean war. It has survived the fall of the Soviet Union.
It might be a lot of things but moronic? No. |
It might be a lot of things but "stable" is the last word that should be used to describe North Korea. They were only able to survive through massive handouts by the former Soviet Union and China. Even today were China to turn off the oil taps, North Korea would collapse. A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable". |
Except it manages to get that aid very well.
Not stable because of that reason? Come on TUM. Compare it to other nations that depend on others for aid and it makes the DPRK even more impressive in its durablity. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable".
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "stable". If stable is taken to mean "hasn't collapsed and isn't likely to", then North Korea could probably be called stable. But if stable is taken to mean "capabale of holding itself together without assistance", than North Korea probably can't be called stable.
I tend toward the first definiton of "stable". When we say "this child's life is stable", it doesn't preclude the fact that his parents or other agents provide him with most of the material benefits neccessary for a stable life. And while I doubt that definiton of "stability" is what the Kims had in mind when they developed their "self-reliance" philosophy, I also suspect that at this point KJI is quite happy to settle for that. |
That is exactly what I meant. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| The trouble is, sanctions and isolation have been the policy for 50 years and it didn't work. At some point, something new has to be tried. |
Yeah. The more you isolate the DPRK, the more likely it'll sell its technology to even bigger threats.
the DPRK ain't going to do squat besides that and sell narcotics (oh no! not that!).
It's like Saddam's Iraq: just a bunch of hype with some sick *beep* running the place. |
It's not hype to suggest we should monitor NK shipping closely. After all, all shipping coming from out of NK docks first in a few ports in Japan, South Korea, or China first. Considering that North Korea is essentially a crime-driven state with nuclear weapons, I think it's logical that we should spend at least as much effort tracking what they are shipping as we did with the Libyans.
You're right, BB, we shouldn't isolate the North Korea. But look at the stuff the regime has been saying and tell me it isn't DPRK policy to isolate themselves. That right there should be enough for us to eschew any sort of cavalier attitude about what they might be up to. |
No, I didn't say that was hype. I have no issues with montoring NK shipping.
My point was isolating them does nothing, and that the DPRK really isn't a threat beyond its illicit trading practices. It is one of the few instances where all that satellite intelligence could be put to good use. We should pour more diplomacy into getting china to enforce its border policies and to get E.Asian nations to help us follow DPRK shipping. Negotiating a deal with the DPRK is pointless; the 1994 Clinton agreement is proof of that. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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So Bucheon bum..3 obsessive posts in a row reveals you worship kim jong il as well as being a supporter of Islamic extremism.
What is wrong with you dude????
Bullied at school? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for showing us that your analytical skills are so poor that you are forced to simplify things to the extreme. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Screw North Korea!!~! |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| lastat06513 wrote: |
North Korea and its government are nothing but utter morons.
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not really. It's been in power and stable since the end of the Korean war. It has survived the fall of the Soviet Union.
It might be a lot of things but moronic? No. |
It might be a lot of things but "stable" is the last word that should be used to describe North Korea. They were only able to survive through massive handouts by the former Soviet Union and China. Even today were China to turn off the oil taps, North Korea would collapse. A state that relies on handouts of aid to feed it's people and is completely dependent on others to supply its energy is hardly "stable". |
Except it manages to get that aid very well.
Not stable because of that reason? Come on TUM. Compare it to other nations that depend on others for aid and it makes the DPRK even more impressive in its durablity. |
Not only that reason. You have a megalomanic in power. You have thousands of people who don't have enough to eat. You have trade blocked with many other countries. If it only exists because of other nations using it for as a pawn (The former U.S.S.R and China) one can hardly say that North Korea is stable. Let's look at what OTOH wrote:
He claimed that one meaning of stable is that North Korea "hasn't collapsed and isn't likely to.." The first part is true in that it hasn't collapsed yet, but the second part? That all hinges on China (and South Korea as well) The North is on the verge.
He then used the analogy of a child. "When we say "this child's life is stable", it doesn't preclude the fact that his parents or other agents provide him with most of the material benefits neccessary for a stable life"
The North isn't. It's barely scraping by on what it gets.
Sorry but I can't agree that a nation that is 'hanging on by its fingernails' is all that stable. The DPRK is only impressive because it's put most of that aid into it's military |
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