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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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bobbyhanlon
Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Location: 서울
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 Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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steady on...
in my experience most koreans have treated me with kindness and honesty. i made good friends here, some of whom i've come to rely on more than old friends back home.
there are exceptions of course... korea is not paradise on earth by any means- in particular, when i was a hakwon teacher (at 2 different schools) my bosses were both pretty shady individuals- lying to me about health insurance and pocketing the extra money, for example. but then, this is exactly the kind of stuff that people do to foreign workers in our wonderful 'first world' countries.
i think most of this dishonesty issue comes from people being screwed by hakwons, whose owners are generally a bunch of scumbags. its just the nature of this business- they are selling an essentially non-differentiated product, using expendable labour (lets be honest), in a cut-throat market- so its no surprise that owners try to screw everybody. but after i changed my job, honesty was no longer an issue.
might i also point out that in the samsung case, infineon (definitely not korean) and micron (from the u.s, i might add) were co-conspirators. micron is emerging as the rat too, informing on the other companies involved in order to get out of prosecution- happy to have screwed consumers like samsung did, and then screwing the companies they plotted with too. furthermore, recent cases of bad corporate ethics in the u.s (enron, healthsouth, etc. ad infinitum) make what samsung did pale into insignificance. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Roch wrote: |
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Sorry, that lying and other types of corrupt behaviour exist in the U.S. does not negate nor do justice to the fact that lying is essentially a cultural norm in the Third and Second World, and the R.O.K. is one example of the latter type of nation.
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So lying is a cultural norm in the Third and Second World? Links please or some form of proof that is anything other than your opinion. |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
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That is a fair question-why can't Koreans be honest, Homer?
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TMKATM....it is a fair question. It is also a completely ridiculous question as it is being applied to an entire nation of people.
Such a question, phrased about any nation of people would be equally ridiculous as my Wal Mart = americans example showed.
It is very interesting that when Wal Mart got busted last week for running factories with child labour in Bangladesh that the cry of "those americans...why can't they be fair and honest" did not go up. Yet, a teacher gets screwed by some shady korean school owner here or a Korean corporation gets caught for illegal practices and its "those Koreans are all crooks" and that gets picked up by many here when in reality making such a statement simply proves that a person is ignorant. |
obviously you cant generalize about a whole nation. but here is a difference about your two examples. from what i have heard (and from my experience) when foreigners in korea are taken advantage of, lied to, cheated, stolen from, not paid, etc... the rest of Korea ignores this. they make excuses on why that foreigner deserved it, or they place blame on the foreigner.
When things like that happen in the West, often the people responsible go to jail (Enron excluded), and if what they do is merely immoral, not illegal, they often face protests. I forget the clothes company, maybe it was the Gap, or Nike, but one of those big name companies, when the american public discovered they were using children labor, how many people sent their tags to this company to protest? and the protest changed the company's practices.
When my school refused to pay for my entire airfare after i renewed my contract, as my contract stated they had to, the one teacher that stood up for me got attacked for siding with the foreigner, even though they all read my contract and knew i was right.
so do all koreans lie and cheat? no. do no americans lie and cheat? no. but you can judge a society not by its rules, but how people respond when those rules are broken. in korea, it is ok to use the service of prostitutes, it is ok, to be rude and inconsiderate if you are older than the other person.... |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Price-fixing deceives consumers, who think that the companies are competing to provide them with lower prices or higher quality. |
Thank goodness you said it because I was loading up both barrels. Opinions, no problem. But... ah, nevermind. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| bobbyhanlon wrote: |
i think most of this dishonesty issue comes from people being screwed by hakwons, whose owners are generally a bunch of scumbags. its just the nature of this business- they are selling an essentially non-differentiated product, using expendable labour (lets be honest), in a cut-throat market- so its no surprise that owners try to screw everybody. but after i changed my job, honesty was no longer an issue.
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I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. So many of us have a soiled image of Korea because of them. What kind of impression would foreigners have of Canada / America / the UK if a huge % of them worked only for used car salesmen? |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Price-fixing deceives consumers, who think that the companies are competing to provide them with lower prices or higher quality. |
Deceit would be an offense committed by Samsung. You are talking about an offense perpetrated by the consumers. The correct term is "stupidity" (maybe too strong a term, but I certainly can't type naivete on this korean keyboard). |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Price-fixing deceives consumers, who think that the companies are competing to provide them with lower prices or higher quality. |
Deceit would be an offense committed by Samsung. You are talking about an offense perpetrated by the consumers. The correct term is "stupidity" (maybe too strong a term, but I certainly can't type naivete on this korean keyboard). |
What? So all those laws preventing collusion don't really exist? And that fine is our imagination because, after all, Samsung didn't do anything wrong, they just.... what?
Egad... Kids say the darnedest things...  |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| What? So all those laws preventing collusion don't really exist? And that fine is our imagination because, after all, Samsung didn't do anything wrong, they just.... what? |
I said they didn't do anything dishonest. What they did was something honest but very aggressive. The "laws" are not like laws of physics, unbreakable barriers handed down by God. In fact they are different from one country to another. Samsung (a Korean company) and some other companies decided to conspire to attack the market in the USA (not Korea). Breaking this law was not wrong, it was a business risk. They risked losing a lot of money in a lawsuit for the chance at extra profits. Unfortunately for them, the risk didn't pay off. American courts punish this behavior because they deem it too aggressive and harmful to markets, not because God and the Pope came to Washington and declared it immoral. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| in korea, it is ok to use the service of prostitutes, it is ok, to be rude and inconsiderate if you are older than the other person.... |
This is basically your perception of Korean society as an outsider. How many Koreans do you know well? How well do you speak the language here to be able to judge the societal norms in such a conclusive way? You do touch on some valid points but you basically put the comparison in a better vs worse or right vs wrong frame. Is prostitution accepted here. Sure it is. Does this make Korea a bad society? Well if it does, you better be reader to toss France, Italy and many other european nations into this bad society bag since in those countries, prostitution is quite accepted and draws no real complaints from the population. You could also discuss the countries where it is legal...
If you want to discuss prostitution as being looked down upon you are talking about North American countries. Even there, it is looked upon but deeply ingrained in society. I hardly think fewer people visit prostitutes back home than here.
You are right about the fact that people back home will protest (sometimes) when a company (ex: Gap) does something they feel is immoral. I agree there. The protest tradition is stronger in the West, no contest there. This still does not apply to my example however and I have no intention to contradict you there.
My comparison was valid as it was about a reaction by westerners here to a corrpuption allegation about a corporation. The fact that Koreans ignore bad treatement to foreigners here has nothing to do with my example.
If you do want to make a correct comparison with this...then use a correct example. Foreigners get cheated here often and this is largely ignored by Koreans (true). The correct counter example to use is what happens when foreigners are mistreaded back home. The answer, 9 times out of 10: nothing happens and the "people" don't give a hoot either.
Now, if you want to go back to my example, it was about the reaction and subsequent labeling that happens here. A Korean company boss cheats and lies and the jump is: all koreans are crooks.
The Wal Mart corporations bosses cheat and use child labour and it does not become all americans are crooks. Strangely enough in the Wal Mart example people here apply perespective and are able to use selective vocabulary to put things in their proper scale so it become (quite correctly) Wal Mart are a bunch of crooks. The question is...why can't the same judgement scale be applied to a Korean corporation (or to any other corporation)? Why can't it be: Samsung is dishonest in their business practices instead of Koreas (insert your insult here)?
Thats the simple point I am trying to make. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Price fixing is not just a Korean thing, it happens all over the world. It's one of the first thing they teach you in economics classes. |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| in korea, it is ok to use the service of prostitutes, it is ok, to be rude and inconsiderate if you are older than the other person.... |
This is basically your perception of Korean society as an outsider. How many Koreans do you know well? How well do you speak the language here to be able to judge the societal norms in such a conclusive way? You do touch on some valid points but you basically put the comparison in a better vs worse or right vs wrong frame. Is prostitution accepted here. Sure it is. Does this make Korea a bad society? Well if it does, you better be reader to toss France, Italy and many other european nations into this bad society bag since in those countries, prostitution is quite accepted and draws no real complaints from the population. You could also discuss the countries where it is legal...
If you want to discuss prostitution as being looked down upon you are talking about North American countries. Even there, it is looked upon but deeply ingrained in society. I hardly think fewer people visit prostitutes back home than here.
You are right about the fact that people back home will protest (sometimes) when a company (ex: Gap) does something they feel is immoral. I agree there. The protest tradition is stronger in the West, no contest there. This still does not apply to my example however and I have no intention to contradict you there.
My comparison was valid as it was about a reaction by westerners here to a corrpuption allegation about a corporation. The fact that Koreans ignore bad treatement to foreigners here has nothing to do with my example.
If you do want to make a correct comparison with this...then use a correct example. Foreigners get cheated here often and this is largely ignored by Koreans (true). The correct counter example to use is what happens when foreigners are mistreaded back home. The answer, 9 times out of 10: nothing happens and the "people" don't give a hoot either.
Now, if you want to go back to my example, it was about the reaction and subsequent labeling that happens here. A Korean company boss cheats and lies and the jump is: all koreans are crooks.
The Wal Mart corporations bosses cheat and use child labour and it does not become all americans are crooks. Strangely enough in the Wal Mart example people here apply perespective and are able to use selective vocabulary to put things in their proper scale so it become (quite correctly) Wal Mart are a bunch of crooks. The question is...why can't the same judgement scale be applied to a Korean corporation (or to any other corporation)? Why can't it be: Samsung is dishonest in their business practices instead of Koreas (insert your insult here)?
Thats the simple point I am trying to make. |
Homer, you make some good points. To be honest, I don't have enough experience or evidence to say or counter what you say about foreigners treatment back home.
On to your question then "Why can't it be: Samsung is dishonest in their business practices instead of Koreas (insert your insult here)?"
Here is my sad answer. People let small things over represent. When I went to China, the first two hotels I went two were surrounded by prostitutes. I left thinking "prostitution is rampant in China." I was only there for 11 days, in four cities. I have no clue about the third largest country with over a billion people, but that was what I saw.
Koreans see two Americans start a fight in Itaewon, and they think Americans/American soldiers are bullies.
and when teachers here get screwed by hogwan owners, they think Koreans lie, cheat and steal.
Unfortunately, we remember the big things, and if the other evidence doesnt counter it, we take it as fact.
It is just human nature, like at a job interview, within what, is it 15 seconds 60% of the decision has been made. We view the world through a window, and Americans see Korea through Samsung, Hyundai, and Kia. Koreans see America through our president, military actions, soldiers, and teachers here.
Basically, it is hard to step back and look around that window and realize the corporate elite in Samsung do not represent Korea. But if someone here has had a bad hogwan experience, maybe met a jerk at a club in Seoul, and then reads about Samsung, his window is pretty enforced, and that much harder to see around.
I want to say more and explain more, but i hurt my hand and this is taking forever to type... |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
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antoniothegreat,
That was a very god and very well thought out response. Thanks for taking the time to respond in such a manner.  |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Is prostitution accepted here. Sure it is. Does this make Korea a bad society? Well if it does, you better be reader to toss France, Italy and many other european nations into this bad society bag since in those countries, prostitution is quite accepted and draws no real complaints from the population. You could also discuss the countries where it is legal...
If you want to discuss prostitution as being looked down upon you are talking about North American countries. Even there, it is looked upon but deeply ingrained in society. I hardly think fewer people visit prostitutes back home than here. |
There is also the question of how prostitutes are treated from one country to the next. At least legalised prostitution allows for some basic rights.
Do we have an expert on such matters here?  |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Do we have an expert on such matters here? |
I'm sure we do...
But..it is not I....  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Homer wrote: |
Is prostitution accepted here. Sure it is. Does this make Korea a bad society? Well if it does, you better be reader to toss France, Italy and many other european nations into this bad society bag since in those countries, prostitution is quite accepted and draws no real complaints from the population. You could also discuss the countries where it is legal...
If you want to discuss prostitution as being looked down upon you are talking about North American countries. Even there, it is looked upon but deeply ingrained in society. I hardly think fewer people visit prostitutes back home than here. |
There is also the question of how prostitutes are treated from one country to the next. At least legalised prostitution allows for some basic rights.
Do we have an expert on such matters here? |
Well I am no expert, but I will give it a shot. I'd say that prostitutes are treated pretty badly in most countries rights or not. Do you really think the average prostitute is going to turn in her pimp for treating her badly? She wouldn't last too long on the street either from retalation from the other girls or the pimp's friends, or the pimp when he got out. And for those who don't have a pimp to protect them....
Anyways Korea is not more hypocritial than N.A. in how prostitution is viewed |
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