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Transporting soldiers as freight on commercial airlines.
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

I think transporting corpses on commercial flights/ships is normal procedure. Isn't it? I don't really get the complaint of that aspect of this.

Yes, it is normal. If it isn't normal practice in Britain, Canada, or Australia I'll be surprised.

When you enlist in the armed forces, at least in the U.S., you stop being a person and become government property. Has nothing to do with W. Bush.

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

The offensive part, to me, is the lack of honor guards at the point of destination, with all the ceremonial that is due the fallen.

Concur. This is unfortunate. Why couldn't the President talk to Cindy Sheehan, for that matter, and just let her know he was sorry her son had to die? His major PR problem is his apparent arrogance and callousness. That's why this issue is prone to be misinterpreted in a W. Bush-centric way...

Hollywoodaction

Joined: 02 Jul 2004

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

His major PR problem is his apparent arrogance and callousness.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/salon/0,14779,1295936,00.html#article_continue

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:29 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

I think transporting corpses on commercial flights/ships is normal procedure. Isn't it? I don't really get the complaint of that aspect of this.

The offensive part, to me, is the lack of honor guards at the point of destination, with all the ceremonial that is due the fallen.

I know the administration has forbidden photographs of coffins coming off planes as part of their effort to control public reaction. That is controversial in and of itself. But not to treat the remains with all due respect and honor is beyond the pale.

Shari Lawrence (the spokesperson) addressed this. From the article

"Contrary to popular belief the Army does not have a formal ceremony for when the bodies of soldiers arrive at the base or when they are delivered to the family."

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:32 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

[
Concur. This is unfortunate. Why couldn't the President talk to Cindy Sheehan, for that matter, and just let her know he was sorry her son had to die? .

He did as a matter of fact.

canuckistan
Mod Team

Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:15 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Quote:

When you enlist in the armed forces, at least in the U.S., you stop being a person and become government property. Has nothing to do with W. Bush.

Has it been a while since boot camp? It has everything to do with Bush--if you're in the armed forces he's your commander-in-chief!
Right at the top of the chain of command, and yes, RESPONSIBLE.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:57 am Post subject:

canuckistan wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Quote:

When you enlist in the armed forces, at least in the U.S., you stop being a person and become government property. Has nothing to do with W. Bush.

Has it been a while since boot camp? It has everything to do with Bush--if you're in the armed forces he's your commander-in-chief!
Right at the top of the chain of command, and yes, RESPONSIBLE.

Yes, it's true that as C-in-C he bears the ultimate responsibility for all that goes on in the armed forces. In this sense, it is W. Bush's problem. Doubly so because his White House made this war happen.

It's also true that when you enlist in the armed forces you stop being a human being, and, moreover, even many of your inalienable constitutional rights are alienated. You become government property and equipment -- thus bodies are treated like cargo. I remember going through assembly lines getting innoculations for who knows what. Shots in both arms at the same time and a needle in the hip. And this longstanding, indeed, internationally-normal practice as far as I am aware, has nothing to do W. Bush or any decision he may or may not have made.

This issue came into the open when the Anthrax scare hit the U.S. a while back. Some refused to take the vaccine, which all were required to take, particularly civilian airline pilots who flew in the reserves. Yet they had no choice. All in the armed forces were required to take this vaccine whether they wanted to or not, just like all troops must wear flak jackets while on patrol, and, indeed, just exactly as all M16s and HMMWVs must be properly cared for and protected from the elements. Harsh, yes, but a fact of life. That's just the way it is. Again, not related to W. Bush or any other president.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Maybe not now, and I'm sure she is in a better position than me to know, but they did in the past. Out of a $400 billion defense budget, I'm sure they could scare up a few bucks for some blanks to fire at the grave-site. It wouldn't take much effort to create a detail from the nearest military base or National Guard for an honor guard for those being buried at home rather than at a national cemetary. [/quote]

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

[/quote]

True. But why restart the practise now?

And why critize Bush for something that is NOT practised? Kinda of silly seems to me.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject:

canuckistan wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Quote:

When you enlist in the armed forces, at least in the U.S., you stop being a person and become government property. Has nothing to do with W. Bush.

Has it been a while since boot camp? It has everything to do with Bush--if you're in the armed forces he's your commander-in-chief!
Right at the top of the chain of command, and yes, RESPONSIBLE.

Responsible for what? There is no formal ceremony the Army has. Read the article again.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

why restart the practise now

Because it's respectful.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:03 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Gopher wrote:

[
Concur. This is unfortunate. Why couldn't the President talk to Cindy Sheehan, for that matter, and just let her know he was sorry her son had to die? .

He did as a matter of fact.

Yeah, he spoke with Sheehan a first time and she seemed satisfied at the time. Later, after Sheehan started hanging around with Michael Moore and began using her son's death as a blatant political tool, she demanded a second meeting. Bush was wise (or simply not a total idiot?) to refuse.

canuckistan
Mod Team

Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:16 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

canuckistan wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Quote:

When you enlist in the armed forces, at least in the U.S., you stop being a person and become government property. Has nothing to do with W. Bush.

Has it been a while since boot camp? It has everything to do with Bush--if you're in the armed forces he's your commander-in-chief!
Right at the top of the chain of command, and yes, RESPONSIBLE.

Responsible for what? There is no formal ceremony the Army has. Read the article again.

That's not entirely true. Every service member is entitled to have a military funeral if it is requested. It is their right.
That would include the ceremony for repatriated remains.

This from my husband aka Captain Awesome, US Army.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

That's not entirely true. Every service member is entitled to have a military funeral if it is requested. It is their right.
That would include the ceremony for repatriated remains.

This is much more what I thought was true. I didn't realize someone had to request a military funeral. I just thought it was automatic if someone was in the military.

My dad, a World War II vet, died 11 years ago. At the funeral I saw an elderly gentleman in an old uniform, clearly frail himself. He spoke to my mom after the service. Later I asked if he was a friend of Dad's. She said no. He is a man who lives up in What Cheer who reads the obituaries every day, watching for the death notices of other vets. He puts on his uniform and attends the funeral. He told Mom, "I think it's fitting to attend the services when my comrades in arms pass."

I thought that was pretty damn cool.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Concur. This is unfortunate. Why couldn't the President talk to Cindy Sheehan, for that matter, and just let her know he was sorry her son had to die?

He did as a matter of fact.

I agree that she made her self into, and the Moore people used her as, a partisan weapon directed to make the anti-W. Bush mob cheer. In this, she lacks credibility, particularly where she attacks U.S. Mid East policy, something she is not qualified to do on the national stage, and particularly because Moore is the most annoying and the least subtle propagandist I've ever seen.

But she has described -- and I do believe her -- a very cold conversation where W. Bush didn't even have the facts straight.

Clearly, she did not come away from this meeting feeling better. Now, W. Bush cannot possibly have relieved her grief. No one could have. But someone like Clinton, Reagan, or Carter would almost certainly have defused the situation enough to keep her from becoming what she became. W. Bush lacks this ability, not only innately, but he also just doesn't care.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:08 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

[
But she has described -- and I do believe her -- a very cold conversation where W. Bush didn't even have the facts straight...

Clearly, she did not come away from this meeting feeling better.. .

Only on this as so much else she is misrepresenting the facts. After her meeting with President Bush she was warmly appreciative of him. It was only after she got picked up by the left that she suddenly changed her tune.

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