Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Maserial]

[goodbyekoreasale]

[Karabeara]

As much as I dislike illegals working here, I dislike the Korean Immigration department even more. I would have no interest in informing, even for cash.

[n3ptne]

Nah, it's flawless, and I dont mean that as an ego kick... one of my pet peeves is doing everything the exact and proper way as the native people in any given cultural endeavor.

Take eating rice for instance, I was amazed when I found out it was considered "rude" to eat it with chopsticks, especially since I see Koreans doing it (more than occassionally). But nonetheless, it is not proper, and while I don't personally care one way or another, it isn't proper. So, now I don't eat rice with my sticks anymore. And when it comes to eating with sticks? I don't just eat with sticks, I eat using the same finger position (which was somewhat different, and more difficult, than the one I developed in the US) as Koreans do.

It isn't that I do such things to impress Koreans, or even bridge the gap between myself and them... I do it because it takes bullets away from the small minded people who may try to use these deviations against me, i.e the "look at the stupid waygook who eats his rice with chopsticks" people.

My work ethic is impeccable: I ask for extra responsibilities, and go about my job with the mentality of representing not only my employers, but my people as a whole. My motivation is not only to do my job to the fullest of my abilities (to educate the children, and to make the process as enjoyable as possible), but also to make my bosses more money. Taking a sick day isn't in my vocabulary, if I stay home, it's because my boss told me I'm too sick to work or because I'm in a hospital. No such thing as being late, I come early most of the time.

*MY* image is flawless, and when some aspect of it shows itself to be otherwise, I quickly change it.

Right now I'm two months into my contract, my employers have already asked me if I'll stay for a second year. My class sizes are all growing, new kids are coming in weekly, many of whom are friends with my existing students. I asked to work Saturdays, got them to let me start a writing class that meets twice a month. I go out of my way to meet parents, and upon finding out that once a month, on a Saturday (one of my only two free Saturdays mind you), parents come into the school for a sort of meeting, I asked if I could be there. I dress up to go to work.

I don't do these things to suck up, I do them because I'm capable, and I do them because when the time does come to resign my contract, I don't expect to have to ask for more money, I expect it to be offered (laugh if you want, but I'm contracted at 18,000won per overtime hour, but am being paid 30,000won because I "deserve it"). At the present I am already netting my employers an additional 600,000won per month, excluding any potential money they earn from new students who are coming to the school because of me. That's all just in two months.

What appalls me is the absence of this mentality in the few foreign friends that I do have. They're great people, and they are friends of mine, but would I want them as employees? The answer is definately no.

But back to ratting? In this case it is a victimless crime, having a college degree doesn't qualify you to teach English in a foreign country. I know people at home without a degree who would make better, and harder working teachers than some of the foreigners I've met here. This isn't by any means a "norm", but the fact of the matter is that the only way one can determine their ability to perform this job is by trying it out. There are plenty of degree holders who suck at their job, and there are probably plenty of nondegree holders who suck at their job. The degree is a nonissue, it is just an expensive piece of paper, I advocate qualification exams.

Anyway, if you rat on someone, especially for money, you are less than human in my eyes, you're a piece of garbage.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[korian]

[TheUrbanMyth]

[korian]

[JongnoGuru]

[Yu_Bum_suk]

[n3ptne]

Naw, I'm not implying they all eat the same way, I'm implying the way I ate was different.

As for the us/them thing? Thats exactly what concept this is. I'm an American, European roots... if I were doing something illegal and a Korean (whether it be teacher, owner, or citizen) turns me in, then I got caught, fair and square: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime". But if I get turned in by another countrymen, whether you be English, Aussie, American, or Canuck? And solely for the purpose of money, or dislike? Well, then you're a rat.

Like I said, it's one thing to tell someone you know they're an illegal, and that you aren't cool with it, that they have X amount of time to get out of town (if you'd like to take the moral high ground), but it's quite another to go to the law, a law I might add that in all reality has little available rights for foreigners.

You can make the argument that "it's only a fine and deportation", which in and of itself doesn't sound that bad, but what if, for whatever reason, it's worse? What if it's jail? As much as I "dislike" illegal teachers (wouldn't even call it dislike, frankly I don't care so long as your capable), I don't believe anyone should be going to jail over using false credentials. And as for deportation? That's a permenent black mark against the person that can (and most likely will) follow them around for the next few decades.

In the US if you lie on a resume and the employer finds out, you get fired/resign, or, if you happen to work for the Pentagon, nothing happens.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/10/eveningnews/main616664.shtml

As for the divide and conquer issue? I do give them credit, it's a brilliant strategy to play off of greed and appease society at large by increasing television coverage and thus decreasing the Western perception among Korean citizens. Ratting on an illegal isn't "self policing" with the goal of "improving our image", it will only deteriorate it. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that Immigration has, well within its own power, the ability to root out 100% of all false credential using teachers here? It would require a simple Google search/phone call/fax. If they were really concerned by the "detriment" being caused by these illegal teachers, why not put an end to them? The fact of the matter is that this is all about politics and image: It is more cost efficient for them to have us rat on one another, and still have the benefit of anti-Western television coverage, than it would be to actually do their job.

As for the teachers who do privates? Why is it illegal? Because it is not helping the Korean economy, or Korea, it is helping us (vs. them) by increasing the potential amount of money we can take away from Korea. I don't have a problem with it being illegal. I do privates for free in exchange for help with Korean, I don't need the extra money, and even if it were legal to charge? I'd still do them for free. Why? Teaching english is a pathetically easy thing for me, it's the one thing I know how to do best, above all others, and it's something I didn't even have to think about to do well before coming here. Being in Korea has forced me to confront my language from an entirely different perspective, and everytime I teach, I get more insight, I learn. So, do a private lesson for free in exchange for extra Korean lessons (I have about 7 a week, costs me 0$) and the hopes of being fluent in a year or two? Add in the fact that even though it's a free lesson I get free drinks and dinner usually, plus the benefit of making real Korean friends who include me in their lives and family lives, invite me out to do things? It's a no brainer, the 25,000-30,000won they offer to pay me an hour isn't worth half as much, and the potential amount of extra money I'll be able to earn as a native English speaker who is nearly fluent in Korean pales in comparison as well. All that for an hour of doing something that comes as naturally as shooting fish in a barrel.

I would imagine that there is very little actual detriment being caused by teachers with fake credentials, and personally don't think that a college degree is any sort of basis for being able to successfully perform this job. If you are a native speaker who can work well with children, willing to work hard, and have any sort of brain, you can do this job. Again, I can't stress how much I advocate qualification exams. A monkey with money can make his way through college and earn a four year degree in something, is he qualified to teach here? What about someone with a degree is PhysEd (a friend of mine has one, good teacher too)? Culinary arts?

The real reason they know we'll rat is purely greed, either in hopes of money now or more money later, under the completely BS arguement that by getting rid of all the illegal teachers the country will suddenly have a shortage of legit teachers, and our average salaries will rise (supply and demand). If you want more money, work harder and earn it. It is available under simple economic theory ([short] supply of good teachers and [high] demand for them) and I do expect to be getting an additional 500,000won minimum per month on my next contract. Sounds insane? The truth is my employer will make more by paying me more, instead of having to take his chances with another teacher who may want to "stick to the contract". I don't care if your Korean, American, or African, if you're in business, you are out to make money, and the bottom line is that his bottom line is higher with me, even with a big raise, than it might/probably be with someone else. So let the hagwon owners, education officials, and employees at Immigration deal with this issue, and focus on your job not on other peoples... and for those of you who have a serious moral dilemma? I suggest adhering to the "let he within sin cast the first stone" philosophy and keep your fucking mouthes shut. I hate rats.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[n3ptne]

I can agree that if, after warning, someone refuses to leave that the situation may be sufficent to turn them over to the law, and would in this case not consider it ratting... if they go to jail, their own fault. However, I wouldn't be the one to do either, unless they worked for me, and only because they work *for me*.

As for the supply and demand argument? I don't buy it, if they can't find teachers, they wont pay us more, they'll recruit or lower their standards.

Furthermore, I don't like the us and them phenomenon, but the fact of the matter is that I am a legal guest in the country of Korea, and outside of this I have barely any rights. They can essentially do with me whatever they want, right or wrong, legal or illegal. Anyone, ANY westerner who gives up the name of another foreigner to the law/government is a rat, unless there are extreme circumstances involved (a murderer, etc.). Take this for example, someone tells Immigration that I'm teaching on a fake degree, even if I'm not... what does that entail? It entails the law looking up my asshole, it entails my name going on a list that it never comes off of... it brings about suspicion from a foreign power.

I'm not talking, in regards to deportation, about being banned for life. I'm talking about your name going inside a computer, and a mark going on your record of you having been deported from a country... I'm talking about increased scrutiny every time you travel to another country as a result. You want to punish people who break crimes, thats fine and a noble pursuit, I personally believe it is the job of the government, not the citizens, to police those that break the rules instituted by the government. But for the sole motivation of greed, a rat is going to put a mark on that person that will follow them around for life. I don't dig that, it isn't worth 2,000,000won, or even 100,000,000won to damage someone for life over a stupid mistake they made in their youth, or made out of circumstances beyond your understanding. If you find an illegal teacher, use it as an oppurtunity to encourage them to actually get a degree, better them as a result, but don't go to the law, no good can come from that.

As for the bit about college? Well, college is expensive, not everyone can afford to go. Personally I racked up in excess of $30,000USD over the course of my education, and was only able to do so because I had parents who were willing to cosign loans. What did I get out of college? A $30,000 piece of paper... my level of education didn't come from going to classes, it came from reading and studying as a function of self ambition. I see the college situation, in the US anyway, as a sort of strongarm tactic. You MUST go, you MUST pay the money, or you WON'T be able to get a good job... but, as soon as you get the good job, they train you (this doesn't apply for some obvious professions, doctors, etc.) Basically college education shows an employer that you are "capable of being trained", and thats complete BS and completely against the ethical ideals that a college education is supposed to stand for. The people I went to school with went with the sole motivation of "passing the class, making the grade, to get the degree and then the job". Information went in one ear and out the other, very few if any of them were actually interested in learning (let alone learning how to use what they learned). I'm not arguing that fraud isn't a crime... I'm merely saying that it's none of my business.

If the won has risen... the salaries will logically drop. If I'm a Korean hagwon owner, and I want to pay an untrained fresh American graduate to come work at my school, then I think in terms of how much he is worth in American dollars (because thats how he thinks). If the Korean won goes up, his starting salary, in won, decreases, but in US dollars remains roughly the same. This can be offset by domestic inflation, etc, but you get the point.

So, back to the rat issue... if its for money, you are a piece of filth, if its for morality, I advise warning the individual first and to adhere to the biblical concept aforementioned... but if that doesn't jive, then turn them in... just give the money to charity. People who take blood money for personal gain are no better or worse than the people who fudge a resume.

Oh, and if Immigration doesn't have enough manpower why don't they stop putting out a 2,000,000won reward and start hiring some people who can operate Google and a fax machine? Or allocate more money to manpower... if the issue of finding and expelling illegals was as dire as they'd lead us to believe, this would be a no brainer. As for the majority of illegal teachers flying under the radar? Revamp the tourist visa application/length structure and increase penalties against hogwans who knowingly employ teachers with tourist visas to include jail time/and or heavy fines and the problem will solve itself. This is all just governmental smoke and mirrors.

[cellphone]

[TheUrbanMyth]