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kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: Skeptics

I was just doing a little research on one of huck's questions re: Genesis, and I found The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
It's full of interesting questions about the Bible, organized into handy categories:

Absurdities
Contradictions
Family Values
Women
Science and History
Injustice
Sex
Interpretation
Cruelty and Violence
Prophecy
Intolerance
Homosexuality
Good Stuff

Here's the entry for Genesis under Good Stuff:

Quote:

There's nothing good in Genesis.

I thought I could save people a little time, since Dave's ESL (And Christian Theology) Cafe has been rife with apologetics and mockery lately. Anyone needing ammunition is welcome to help themselves at this site. Unfortunately, it's written from a very literal perspective, as if every story handed down throughout Jewish history were perfectly applicable to our culture and times. The early books of the Bible do make a little more sense when you look at them in a cultural context, without reading them as a science text-book or an ethical to-do list.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The early books of the Bible do make a little more sense when you look at them in a cultural context, without reading them as a science text-book or an ethical to-do list.

I agree with that.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Skeptics

kermo wrote:

Unfortunately, it's written from a very literal perspective, as if every story handed down throughout Jewish history were perfectly applicable to our culture and times.

OK, but isn't that kind of a cop-out? The Bible is THE WORD OF GOD except for all those bits about God creating the earth out of magic and Jesus walking on water and stuff. Why even say that you're a believer?

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Skeptics

joe_doufu wrote:

kermo wrote:

Unfortunately, it's written from a very literal perspective, as if every story handed down throughout Jewish history were perfectly applicable to our culture and times.

What I mean is that just because Abraham had a concubine doesn't mean we should all have concubines, et cetera.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Skeptics

kermo wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

kermo wrote:

Unfortunately, it's written from a very literal perspective, as if every story handed down throughout Jewish history were perfectly applicable to our culture and times.

What I mean is that just because Abraham had a concubine doesn't mean we should all have concubines, et cetera.

So... all the mysticism should be taken literally, but the actual social human being stuff should be tossed? Besides, what do you have against concubines?

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Skeptics

joe_doufu wrote:

kermo wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

kermo wrote:

Unfortunately, it's written from a very literal perspective, as if every story handed down throughout Jewish history were perfectly applicable to our culture and times.

What I mean is that just because Abraham had a concubine doesn't mean we should all have concubines, et cetera.

So... all the mysticism should be taken literally, but the actual social human being stuff should be tossed? Besides, what do you have against concubines?

You're playing the devil's advocate, right? I'm not sure you're reading me very carefully, but okay, I'll play the straight man for a while.
The Bible has plenty to say about "actual social human being stuff" but I wouldn't go so far as to say that we are responsible to emulate the behaviour of characters in the Old Testament just because their lives are recorded there. Our primary responsibility is to love God, and treat others with love and respect.

I secretly think concubines are groovy, but these days it's considered adultery, so having one/being one is out of bounds for me. Sometimes loving God means making sacrifices. (sigh)

Re: mysticism. I believe in miracles. Full stop. Having said that, I think there are some natural explanations for certain events in the Bible, like the oarting of the Red Sea. (No, I don't believe that Jesus walked on frozen water.) Similarly, I'm inclined to believe that God still does freaky super-natural stuff, and that people are occasionally wowed by things that are un-miraculous.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Skeptics

kermo wrote:

I secretly think concubines are groovy, but these days it's considered adultery, so having one/being one is out of bounds for me. Sometimes loving God means making sacrifices. (sigh)

What do you mean "these days it's considered adultery"? Do the ten commandments change over time... forbid adultery for example but change the definition of adultery as society changes? It seems like if God said it was OK then it must be OK now.

tweeterdj

Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: Gwangju

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Do the ten commandments change over time

sorry joe, Abraham was around LONG before Moses (who brought around the Ten Commandments). And don't you think God understands about social laws and norms? Don't you think he helped form them?

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject:

tweeterdj wrote:

And don't you think God understands about social laws and norms? Don't you think he helped form them?

What I'm talking about is changing the definition of a sin. It's adultery now, so it's a sin, but it wasn't called adultery then, so it's not a sin? Presumably when God says don't commit adultery, you follow God's definition of adultery. So... what's that?

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject:

Quote:

This is another great question.

i am not like Kermo and believe in the bible literally. Obviously, there are symbolisms and metaphors that make the literal meanings confusing.

Regardless, before Moses there wasn't a law. There wasn't a law, because God isn't a legalist. He's not going to slap down some religious commandments and say do them. It's a journey of redemption.

This can be compared to the believer and non-believer. The bible says it would be better off for a believer who falls into sin to have never know salvation. In otherwords, you are held accountable for what you know. It's a lot like enlightenment in a buddhist sense.

Abraham had a concubine and another wife, Jacob had two wives and two concubines, Solomon had over 300 wives and 700 concubines. David had many wives and was called a man after God's own heart. This being after the law of Moses.

I often ask God, please give me some of that action, but He only laughs. He tells me one wife is more than enough. I often agree. Wink

So the point of this is, the law of Moses didn't come into effect without the journey. It wouldn't have been a law without the journey.

The great thing about the bible is this, the crucible of the paradox. What often seems to be a contradiction often brings the greatest level of revelation. This in itself releases us from Dogma and allows for a spirituality without transcendence. It's an amazing story.

tweeterdj

Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: Gwangju

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject:

Alright Joe, we're double-teaming you now. My wife has informed me that any extra-marrital affairs were looked down on before the 10 Commandments, but after that, it was actually God's law. To fully explain God's law you'd have to read Deuteronomy, however you'd probably get dizzy (as i do) reading it. So God's definition of adultery is there somewhere. I find religion to be very personal, and if it doesn't feel right to me (ie if it makes me feel guilty) it's probably wrong, and that's more important than "rules" written thousands of years ago.

Qinella

Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Skeptics

kermo wrote:

About the SAB.

tektonics wrote:

link here

Why have we not bothered with these guys before? Because they aren't actually arguing anything. Editorial commentary in the form of pictures and one-sentence comments are not arguments. SAB is the Internet equivalent to a brick wall scribbled with graffiti, or arguing by saying, "nanny nanny boo boo." It performs (of course!) no analysis of the social background, the literary data, or context. It is merely "instant reaction" from angry Skeptics. And that sort of arguing isn't arguing at all. We feel no more obliged to offer a response than they would feel obliged to respond to a preacher whose only argument was, "You're a sinner bound for hell!"

That said, such implied arguments as SAB uses are indeed thoroughly answered on this site and others we link to, but as our time has opened up a bit it is time to get more specific. We have now run through the single-sentence commentaries in SAB and added such response as we deemed necessary. By estimate perhaps 40-50% of SAB's comments are either "argument by outrage" or places where SAB takes moral offense, usually against a cultural norm. Most of the rest are easily answered by links. Overall almost none of SAB deserves detailed response and many cases require no more than a "So, what's the big deal?" as a response.

I agree that the SAB is an amateurish attempt to criticize the Bible. The people who make that site do not read Greek or Hebrew, don't understand ancient literature criticism or Ancient Near East anthropology, aren't trained in exegesis and hermeneutics, and are not intellectually honest. The site is funny, but by no means should be used as a reference for any sort of serious debate.

In truth, there are really very few biblical criticisms that can stand up to scrutiny. The best most skeptics usually offer is outrage and simple disbelief.

Q.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:36 am Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

tweeterdj wrote:

And don't you think God understands about social laws and norms? Don't you think he helped form them?

In fact, yes, the way God has dealt with his church has changed over time. The very foundation of what He required of his church shifted with the birth and subsequent death of Christ. Christ actually said he came to form a new covenenant. He didn't say we're gonna revise it a bit, he said it was new. Shiny, bright, brand-spanking-new.

Old Testament = Eye for an Eye/Do this or I shall smite thee a mighty blow, drown the lot of you, etc.

New Testament = Love, sweet love... all we need is love... love the one you're with... Well, that last one was CSNY, but whatever.

Think of it this way. Humankind obviously has been changing over time. Presumably becomeing more intelligent and better able to handle the abstract. IOW, growing up.

When we were children, we thought as children and were treated accordingly. We were given rules to live by, spanked when necessary.

Whe we were young adults we understood there were certain rules that we should follow: The Ten Commandments, which, if one lives by them would lead to a pretty terrific way of life, no? But, still a set of rules. No outside-the-box thinking here. Pretty rigid stuff. No need for debate or interpretation. Just right for an unsphisticated lot building the first large population centers, etc.

As we became a mature people we were told the Commandments weren't enough. We were now expected to go beyond this and do the unimaginable give over our greed, or even our own well-being to others. Stop fighting and make a brother of our enemy. IOW, the gray areas were up to us to figure out using our faith, our reason, our compassion.

When do we fight our enemies, when do we embrace them? How ,uch do we give the beggar? Everything? Enough to get him through the night?

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:40 am Post subject:

I read this thread and thought I'd take the time to just list some of the "assinine" comments. No insult intended to those making these comments, we all make them from time to time.....BUT it does show how we do seem to be perfect solopsists, mistaking our knowledge for the world's and TRUTH.

Quote:

Think of it this way. Humankind obviously has been changing over time. Presumably becomeing more intelligent and better able to handle the abstract. IOW, growing up.

yeah, think Treblinka, Oswietz, Dresden, WWI , Rwanda, Khmer Rouge, military expenditure, nuclear annihilation as a possibility. Very mature. Is this then the end of history? Our death? Human's don't progress, only the human heart....sorry, poster is dead wrong and goes on to state that as mature we should "surpass' the 10 commandments. Sorry, we can't even keep the 2 Jesus whittled it down to....

Quote:

agree that the SAB is an amateurish attempt to criticize the Bible. The people who make that site do not read Greek or Hebrew

Aramaic, Hebrew I believe are the languages of the locals at the time (plus a smattering of other Semitic languages...) and the language of the scrolls. But the Bible and all commentary has been washed through so many translations, nothing is left but pure gruel, no nutrients....It is a book of "the victor" and is an interpretation of history. Empty of truth unless you read it symbolically.....only in this way could the message survive.

Quote:

So God's definition of adultery is there somewhere.

So God wrote? So God spoke and there were tape recorders around? God is silence......he / she / it does not speak and those who think they hear God or know what God wants are crazy fools. Words are of the tower of Babel and we are just confused in their presence when we try to use them to reach God....But hey, if you have a hot line to God, let me know, I've a few questions.....

Quote:

I find religion to be very personal, and if it doesn't feel right to me (ie if it makes me feel guilty) it's probably wrong, and that's more important than "rules" written thousands of years ago.

Hitler said something quite similiar in Mein Kampf. Those that confuse what they feel and what should be are tyrants....... .I'm sorry but this isn't a very great attitude especially when religion is suppossed to be "community".......

Quote:

sorry joe, Abraham was around LONG before Moses (who brought around the Ten Commandments). And don't you think God understands about social laws and norms? Don't you think he helped form them?

Another instance of someone speaking for God.....pure and plain idolitry, the greatest sin is to speak of knowledge of "what God knows"....wash yourself my friend.....

Quote:

Word of God.....who said so.....how do we know? I think God is a legalist and has taken the 5th......

Quote:

Our primary responsibility is to love God, and treat others with love and respect.

This are the only words I found truthful and humble enough to be religious. We are not to try to find out what God wants or to find out what God said ---- we are to LOVE him, through the glory of our lives, being here and having the chance to be alive. And our love of him is always through others....not a selfish thing, a meditation on the world but an active love.........kindness, humility, helping, living in the knowledge of our own ignorance....

Anyways, my own thoughts here..

DD

Qinella

Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:22 am Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Quote:

agree that the SAB is an amateurish attempt to criticize the Bible. The people who make that site do not read Greek or Hebrew

Aramaic, Hebrew I believe are the languages of the locals at the time (plus a smattering of other Semitic languages...) and the language of the scrolls.

Okay, I left off Aramaic. This doesn't change the fact that the SAB writer can't read any of the three.

Quote:

But the Bible and all commentary has been washed through so many translations, nothing is left but pure gruel, no nutrients....

And your proof of this is what? Are you, like the SAB contributors, simply an amateur making an uneducated guess? How much do you know about Hebrew record-keeping standards? How prevalent was writing at the time of the OT? What other methods were used to pass along information? Could we say the OT is somewhat unique in that it recorded the downfalls and losses alongside with victories?

These are the questions you need already have known the answer to if your opinion is to be worth anything. I don't mean to be rude at all. I'm just curious if biblical criticism is a serious interest of yours, or if you're just making passing comments without any necessary knowledge.

Quote:

It is a book of "the victor" and is an interpretation of history.

Of course, as is all history. So, do you apply the same standard to ancient Greek and Roman historians when reading their accounts? Can we believe anything at all about the Punic Wars, since the Carthaginians didn't write the history about it?

Quote:

Empty of truth unless you read it symbolically.....only in this way could the message survive.

Not really. There are portions that any honest intellectual would grant are probably historically accurate, and other portions which must be analyzed in various ways.

Keep in mind, I'm an atheist. I don't "believe in" the Bible, but I also don't believe in unwarranted, amateurish criticism of it, or of anything.

Cheers,
Q.

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