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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
O boy, I can't wait to see the mocking begin now. 
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| (I'm sticking with my earlier statement that I'm not going to argue and try to convince people that they're deluded and believing in a bunch of moralistic folk tales passed down through countless generations.) |
So you will pacify us with insulting us?  Actually, it's a great question.
I don't agree with Kermo, I believe in a literal Adam and Eve. It you don't then you have to chuck the book of Romans. (Read romans 5 Kermo) As with all the other scriptures that refer to the sin of Adam and Eve. Every nation has come through Adam and Eve. Otherwise, there could be people who didn't sin and fall into darkness. This isn't mentioned. What could have happened, was Adam and Eve had a whole of children before they fell into sin.
So not only did this happen with Adam and Eve children, but with Jacob slept with his wife's daughter (under deception) and Lot slept with his children too (He was drunk and his daughters came in and slept with him). David's son slept with his sister.
1. If you are in Christ, we are all brothers and sisters in the family of God. Therefore, my wife, who is my sister in Christ, are having sex.  God ordained sex to be pure and beautiful. It was to be an expression of the type of love that He feels towards us, His children.
2. When God first created the world, he had hoped for a creation without the marks of sin. Sex was intended to be a glorious thing and it would bring glory to God. When sex is pure, and this will sound gross, I don't think it would have been wrong to have sex between two grown adults who are sister and brother. It is like the example, I have given between my wife and I. However, sin twists sex and turns it into something that doesn't glorify God. Sin causes genetic mutations and genetic deformatites. Since these kids started having sex and they were living in sin, then deformities came. When you sin, the curse of it visits your 3rd and 4th generation of children. It's called iniquity. This is why it is culturally taboo now, because it brings about deformaties.
3. You have to also consider this is an era where Adam and Eve were in the image of God. This isn't your normal race, but it was stronger and more physically evolved than us. The environment was still in its prime and glory. Over time, through inbreeding and sin, humanity and the environment became darker and full of sin. Therefore Moses had to put a stop to it by addressing it in His law. Paul also had to address the amount of debauchery in the corinthian church. Fathers sleeping with daughers, moms sleeping with sons and so forth.
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Just who were those folks over in Nod, then? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I was raised in a non-denominational church and wasn't taught much dogma, so I might be a bit of a heretic. I don't really buy the idea that "original sin" in the sense that "sin entered the world" at a specific moment, and is inherited. What about thinking of "the sin of Adam and Eve" in a less literal sense? It doesn't really change what sin is, or what we should do about it. |
Actually, it does. If there is no riginal sin, there is no need for Jesus as all are part of God's little plan. We have no sin, therefore our admission ticket to Heaven is already stamped. Original sin creates a need for a Christ to remove that sin so we can go to heaven and be in the presence of our Lord. And that means we need a church. So we need priests. And popes. And lots of rules about how to get and keep that sinless state.
Don't you see how much the church does for us? |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
Gee, kermo, I'm not sure your position makes sense. No offense, but if you don't believe it literally, why bother with it? Ten years from now, biotech researchers are not going to hold the fraud Dr. Hwang up as a hero and excuse his mistakes by saying "Well, his results were bogus, but if you take what he was saying metaphorically...".
Christianity would have a lot more appeal if the Christians who believe would just update the darned Bible to get rid of the stuff that they can agree they don't believe in. Why do you think your religion looks like lunacy to outside observers? |
Here's what I believe:
I believe that God created the world. I believe that people have a special place in it, and that God wants to relate to people, so he reveals himself through nature, through that "still small voice", and through supernatural events (this is all Biblical so far.) The details of how the world was created don't matter so much. To use your analogy, it's as if Dr. Hwang cloned the puppy but couldn't make us non-academics understand, so he published a pamphlet using cartoon diagrams to give us the gist. The story of the creation was something people could understand, and gives us the basics: God is in charge, people were designed to be in relationship with Him, and sin separates us from Him.
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
I believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he taught and lived as an example, and died in order to fulfil a very powerful covenant. A covenant is like an agreement or a promise, and instead of shrugging off our sins, God showed that we can do more than rationalize or fetishize our sinfulness: we can overcome it by doing two things-- accepting that Jesus' sacrifice was enough to outweigh all our sins, and then striving to live up to the "pure and holy" label God has placed on us when the price for our sins has been paid.
I believe that God's love and power are at work all the time. Christianity for me is more than happy-clappy worship or a set of beliefs or ethics-- it means that I've experienced this love and power in action. I've felt it, and been a part of it. Experiencing this mercy, accepting this grace makes all the weird (sometimes petty) Biblical questions and scorn from friends and strangers seem pretty unimportant. |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| hojucandy wrote: |
| . it even differs from country to country now. in australia it is legal to marry your first cousin. |
Really??? Always felt guilty about beating the puppy after those family reunions.... not so much about the self loving but more about doing it 'cause of a damn fine family member......
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inbreeding is over-rated. it takes many generation of continuous inbreeding to cause problems. a little incest here and there does no damage to the gene pool. |
tell that to Prince Charles |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| joe_doufu wrote: |
Gee, kermo, I'm not sure your position makes sense. No offense, but if you don't believe it literally, why bother with it? Ten years from now, biotech researchers are not going to hold the fraud Dr. Hwang up as a hero and excuse his mistakes by saying "Well, his results were bogus, but if you take what he was saying metaphorically...".
Christianity would have a lot more appeal if the Christians who believe would just update the darned Bible to get rid of the stuff that they can agree they don't believe in. Why do you think your religion looks like lunacy to outside observers? |
Here's what I believe:
I believe that God created the world. I believe that people have a special place in it, and that God wants to relate to people, so he reveals himself through nature, through that "still small voice", and through supernatural events (this is all Biblical so far.) The details of how the world was created don't matter so much. To use your analogy, it's as if Dr. Hwang cloned the puppy but couldn't make us non-academics understand, so he published a pamphlet using cartoon diagrams to give us the gist. The story of the creation was something people could understand, and gives us the basics: God is in charge, people were designed to be in relationship with Him, and sin separates us from Him.
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
I believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he taught and lived as an example, and died in order to fulfil a very powerful covenant. A covenant is like an agreement or a promise, and instead of shrugging off our sins, God showed that we can do more than rationalize or fetishize our sinfulness: we can overcome it by doing two things-- accepting that Jesus' sacrifice was enough to outweigh all our sins, and then striving to live up to the "pure and holy" label God has placed on us when the price for our sins has been paid.
I believe that God's love and power are at work all the time. Christianity for me is more than happy-clappy worship or a set of beliefs or ethics-- it means that I've experienced this love and power in action. I've felt it, and been a part of it. Experiencing this mercy, accepting this grace makes all the weird (sometimes petty) Biblical questions and scorn from friends and strangers seem pretty unimportant. |
Ok, well then, that settles that. I'm satisfied.
Next thread! |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
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There are great principles. As I've always said, the core message of christianity is a great one. Why do you need all the hocus pocus BS along for the ride? Do you really believe Jesus "rose from the dead"? Do you believe he "walked on water"? And lastly, do you acknowledge the legitimacy of other religions or do you hold that christianity is the "only way"?
One more question, can you see why people like five eagles perpetuate the image of christians as complete and utter stark raving bonkers lunatics? |
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huck
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I actually do believe what Kermo believes, if you take out the part about what God wants, and put in something more spiritual...
"I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised."
I agree with this, but I don't turn to the bible for guidance on it. I'm more of the "if you're a bad person, then bad things will happen" karma stuff....Maybe I've been watching too much of My Name is Earl. My biggest problem with the bible is that it explicitly says that we were put here and that there's a special place for us and that we're supposed to take what we want from the earth and nature, and it's written as if man is above everything else.....when in reality, I think we just need to find our own niche in nature before we destroy it. It's not ours to tame....we're a part of it.
I don't think we came from two people, but I was just curious how hard-core Christians, like FiveEagles, would defend the incest issue...and there is a difference between sleeping with your wife - who is your sister in the church - and your blood sister....You can say there's not, but you would cringe if you met someone who started bragging about what he/she does with their sibling. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
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