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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
O boy, I can't wait to see the mocking begin now. 
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| (I'm sticking with my earlier statement that I'm not going to argue and try to convince people that they're deluded and believing in a bunch of moralistic folk tales passed down through countless generations.) |
So you will pacify us with insulting us?  Actually, it's a great question.
I don't agree with Kermo, I believe in a literal Adam and Eve. It you don't then you have to chuck the book of Romans. (Read romans 5 Kermo) As with all the other scriptures that refer to the sin of Adam and Eve. Every nation has come through Adam and Eve. Otherwise, there could be people who didn't sin and fall into darkness. This isn't mentioned. What could have happened, was Adam and Eve had a whole of children before they fell into sin.
So not only did this happen with Adam and Eve children, but with Jacob slept with his wife's daughter (under deception) and Lot slept with his children too (He was drunk and his daughters came in and slept with him). David's son slept with his sister.
1. If you are in Christ, we are all brothers and sisters in the family of God. Therefore, my wife, who is my sister in Christ, are having sex.  God ordained sex to be pure and beautiful. It was to be an expression of the type of love that He feels towards us, His children.
2. When God first created the world, he had hoped for a creation without the marks of sin. Sex was intended to be a glorious thing and it would bring glory to God. When sex is pure, and this will sound gross, I don't think it would have been wrong to have sex between two grown adults who are sister and brother. It is like the example, I have given between my wife and I. However, sin twists sex and turns it into something that doesn't glorify God. Sin causes genetic mutations and genetic deformatites. Since these kids started having sex and they were living in sin, then deformities came. When you sin, the curse of it visits your 3rd and 4th generation of children. It's called iniquity. This is why it is culturally taboo now, because it brings about deformaties.
3. You have to also consider this is an era where Adam and Eve were in the image of God. This isn't your normal race, but it was stronger and more physically evolved than us. The environment was still in its prime and glory. Over time, through inbreeding and sin, humanity and the environment became darker and full of sin. Therefore Moses had to put a stop to it by addressing it in His law. Paul also had to address the amount of debauchery in the corinthian church. Fathers sleeping with daughers, moms sleeping with sons and so forth.
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Just who were those folks over in Nod, then? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I was raised in a non-denominational church and wasn't taught much dogma, so I might be a bit of a heretic. I don't really buy the idea that "original sin" in the sense that "sin entered the world" at a specific moment, and is inherited. What about thinking of "the sin of Adam and Eve" in a less literal sense? It doesn't really change what sin is, or what we should do about it. |
Actually, it does. If there is no riginal sin, there is no need for Jesus as all are part of God's little plan. We have no sin, therefore our admission ticket to Heaven is already stamped. Original sin creates a need for a Christ to remove that sin so we can go to heaven and be in the presence of our Lord. And that means we need a church. So we need priests. And popes. And lots of rules about how to get and keep that sinless state.
Don't you see how much the church does for us? |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
Gee, kermo, I'm not sure your position makes sense. No offense, but if you don't believe it literally, why bother with it? Ten years from now, biotech researchers are not going to hold the fraud Dr. Hwang up as a hero and excuse his mistakes by saying "Well, his results were bogus, but if you take what he was saying metaphorically...".
Christianity would have a lot more appeal if the Christians who believe would just update the darned Bible to get rid of the stuff that they can agree they don't believe in. Why do you think your religion looks like lunacy to outside observers? |
Here's what I believe:
I believe that God created the world. I believe that people have a special place in it, and that God wants to relate to people, so he reveals himself through nature, through that "still small voice", and through supernatural events (this is all Biblical so far.) The details of how the world was created don't matter so much. To use your analogy, it's as if Dr. Hwang cloned the puppy but couldn't make us non-academics understand, so he published a pamphlet using cartoon diagrams to give us the gist. The story of the creation was something people could understand, and gives us the basics: God is in charge, people were designed to be in relationship with Him, and sin separates us from Him.
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
I believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he taught and lived as an example, and died in order to fulfil a very powerful covenant. A covenant is like an agreement or a promise, and instead of shrugging off our sins, God showed that we can do more than rationalize or fetishize our sinfulness: we can overcome it by doing two things-- accepting that Jesus' sacrifice was enough to outweigh all our sins, and then striving to live up to the "pure and holy" label God has placed on us when the price for our sins has been paid.
I believe that God's love and power are at work all the time. Christianity for me is more than happy-clappy worship or a set of beliefs or ethics-- it means that I've experienced this love and power in action. I've felt it, and been a part of it. Experiencing this mercy, accepting this grace makes all the weird (sometimes petty) Biblical questions and scorn from friends and strangers seem pretty unimportant. |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| hojucandy wrote: |
| . it even differs from country to country now. in australia it is legal to marry your first cousin. |
Really??? Always felt guilty about beating the puppy after those family reunions.... not so much about the self loving but more about doing it 'cause of a damn fine family member......
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inbreeding is over-rated. it takes many generation of continuous inbreeding to cause problems. a little incest here and there does no damage to the gene pool. |
tell that to Prince Charles |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| joe_doufu wrote: |
Gee, kermo, I'm not sure your position makes sense. No offense, but if you don't believe it literally, why bother with it? Ten years from now, biotech researchers are not going to hold the fraud Dr. Hwang up as a hero and excuse his mistakes by saying "Well, his results were bogus, but if you take what he was saying metaphorically...".
Christianity would have a lot more appeal if the Christians who believe would just update the darned Bible to get rid of the stuff that they can agree they don't believe in. Why do you think your religion looks like lunacy to outside observers? |
Here's what I believe:
I believe that God created the world. I believe that people have a special place in it, and that God wants to relate to people, so he reveals himself through nature, through that "still small voice", and through supernatural events (this is all Biblical so far.) The details of how the world was created don't matter so much. To use your analogy, it's as if Dr. Hwang cloned the puppy but couldn't make us non-academics understand, so he published a pamphlet using cartoon diagrams to give us the gist. The story of the creation was something people could understand, and gives us the basics: God is in charge, people were designed to be in relationship with Him, and sin separates us from Him.
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
I believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he taught and lived as an example, and died in order to fulfil a very powerful covenant. A covenant is like an agreement or a promise, and instead of shrugging off our sins, God showed that we can do more than rationalize or fetishize our sinfulness: we can overcome it by doing two things-- accepting that Jesus' sacrifice was enough to outweigh all our sins, and then striving to live up to the "pure and holy" label God has placed on us when the price for our sins has been paid.
I believe that God's love and power are at work all the time. Christianity for me is more than happy-clappy worship or a set of beliefs or ethics-- it means that I've experienced this love and power in action. I've felt it, and been a part of it. Experiencing this mercy, accepting this grace makes all the weird (sometimes petty) Biblical questions and scorn from friends and strangers seem pretty unimportant. |
Ok, well then, that settles that. I'm satisfied.
Next thread! |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised.
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There are great principles. As I've always said, the core message of christianity is a great one. Why do you need all the hocus pocus BS along for the ride? Do you really believe Jesus "rose from the dead"? Do you believe he "walked on water"? And lastly, do you acknowledge the legitimacy of other religions or do you hold that christianity is the "only way"?
One more question, can you see why people like five eagles perpetuate the image of christians as complete and utter stark raving bonkers lunatics? |
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huck
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I actually do believe what Kermo believes, if you take out the part about what God wants, and put in something more spiritual...
"I believe that people tend to screw up. They tend to hurt themselves, and each other. They often choose selfishly and foolishly. That's what I mean by sin. God wants us to choose what is best for us and for our world, and in the Bible I find teaching that supports loving and unselfish marriages, gentle but firm parenting, good environmental stewardship, how to get along with others, how to find true peace, and how to treat the disenfranchised."
I agree with this, but I don't turn to the bible for guidance on it. I'm more of the "if you're a bad person, then bad things will happen" karma stuff....Maybe I've been watching too much of My Name is Earl. My biggest problem with the bible is that it explicitly says that we were put here and that there's a special place for us and that we're supposed to take what we want from the earth and nature, and it's written as if man is above everything else.....when in reality, I think we just need to find our own niche in nature before we destroy it. It's not ours to tame....we're a part of it.
I don't think we came from two people, but I was just curious how hard-core Christians, like FiveEagles, would defend the incest issue...and there is a difference between sleeping with your wife - who is your sister in the church - and your blood sister....You can say there's not, but you would cringe if you met someone who started bragging about what he/she does with their sibling. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think we came from two people, but I was just curious how hard-core Christians, like FiveEagles, would defend the incest issue...and there is a difference between sleeping with your wife - who is your sister in the church - and your blood sister....You can say there's not, but you would cringe if you met someone who started bragging about what he/she does with their sibling. |
Of course, but that's the culture we live in. Like one poster said, in other countries, the culture is different. Back 10000 years ago, the culture was vastly different. ha. I hate to think about it, but it's like I previously said.
Fiveeagles bigger supporter wrote:
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| One more question, can you see why people like five eagles perpetuate the image of christians as complete and utter stark raving bonkers lunatics? |
Who wants to be normal? 
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Who wants a salvation where the handicapped and foolish couldn't understand? How could handicapped children understand things that are highly complicated? Where would the justice be in that? God considered the poor and the weak when He offered His salvation plan. Wow, go figure...a compassionate God.
EFL wrote
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Just who were those folks over in Nod, then? |
Could have been Adam and Eve's progeny before they fell into sin. Like I said before, you don't know how long it took before Adam and Eve fell into sin.
Kermo wrote,
| Quote: |
| I was raised in a non-denominational church and wasn't taught much dogma, so I might be a bit of a heretic. I don't really buy the idea that "original sin" in the sense that "sin entered the world" at a specific moment, and is inherited. What about thinking of "the sin of Adam and Eve" in a less literal sense? It doesn't really change what sin is, or what we should do about it. |
How do you get around this scripture?
2Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Kermo, it makes all the difference. |
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hojucandy
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| The evil penguin wrote: |
| hojucandy wrote: |
| . it even differs from country to country now. in australia it is legal to marry your first cousin. |
Really??? Always felt guilty about beating the puppy after those family reunions.... not so much about the self loving but more about doing it 'cause of a damn fine family member...... |
yes really...
nothing wrong with it.
if yu like yr cousin - tell her so.
i have known two married couple who were first cousins. it's not a problem. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Phew, this took a while to write. I'm a little sleep-deprived, so please pardon me if I sound loopier than usual.
By the way-- Joe! I don't know if you were kidding there or not, but you made my day. 
>Why do you need all the hocus pocus BS along for the ride?
I believe in a God that's real, powerful, and sometimes mysterious. Some of the things he does don't seem reasonable to me. Why is the Bible so difficult to understand? Why did God take human form? Then again, this sea-horse I saw it COEX this week doesn't seem reasonable to me either.
 Neither does quantum physics. I find that God often does things in unpredictable ways, but He's earned my trust, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in these cases.
>Do you really believe Jesus "rose from the dead"?
I do. I believe that people really saw him (not as a zombie but in a new, heavenly body,) and that His death and Resurrection had supernatural significance. He died to show that he would pay the ultimate price to overcome our sin. He rose from the dead because... and I had to think about this... to show that Death is conquerable, to show that Jesus was more than just a man, and besides, Gods aren��t supposed to stay dead.
>Do you believe he "walked on water"?
Why not? God made the rules, and I suppose he can bend them when he sees fit. I couldn��t tell you the precise significance of that miracle, but I recall that it freaked the disciples out quite a bit.
>And lastly, do you acknowledge the legitimacy of other religions or do you hold that christianity is the "only way"?
I don��t like this question. I��m Canadian, and the only thing we don��t tolerate is intolerance.  However, I think that when Jesus said ��I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except through me,�� that he meant it. However, I refuse to condemn anyone based on my interpretation of these words. I know that Jesus did something revolutionary when he made Jehovah, God of the Israelites, accessible to anyone regardless of gender, race or social status. He exemplifies God��s love, which is key to ��coming to the Father.�� He offered a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, which is also key to ��coming to the father.�� I think he does something quite distinct from other faiths that I��m aware of, and allows people to approach God as beloved children. My Muslim and Jewish friends tend to participate in ritual, and live by a code of ethical and religious dos and don��ts, but they don��t ��approach�� God if they can help it. It just feels weird and scary to them. I��m not ready to say that all other religions are wrong, or that God doesn��t reveal himself in different ways at different times. He��s bigger than me, so I don��t tell Him how to do His job. Sure, I would recommend being a believer to a friend, and it��s my hope that my life ultimately brings glory to God and extends awareness of His love and forgiveness, but I��m not keen on ��who gets saved�� sort of questions either. Not my cup of tea.
>One more question, can you see why people like five eagles perpetuate the image of christians as complete and utter stark raving bonkers lunatics?
This is, er, awkward. Sure, I see the way fiveeagles sounds to you guys. I don��t want to name any more names, but I prefer earnest, gentle Christians who use a lot of jargon, and say ��Hallelujah!�� too often (though these people are perhaps irritating and pretty ��square��) to those who use God as a stick to thrash people with, or apply the term Christian to themselves and then treat others with contempt. Given a choice between the goofy-sounding but respectful fundamentalist and the cynical, offensive moderate, I know which one I would pick for my team. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| By the way-- Joe! I don't know if you were kidding there or not, but you made my day. |
Well I aim to please... |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, |
Hey dumb eagle doesnt this little passage of yours contradict your post of original sin?
Your own quotes come back to show just how stupid you are.
What a quote too.....death reigned/ruled....and still does...guess he outranks your god 
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| Do you believe he "walked on water"? |
Doesnt everyone from Canada 'walk on water'? and isnt it called freaking winter?
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| No one comes to the Father except through me,�� that he meant it |
Interesting...considering that the jews are supposedly gods own chosen people doesnt this contradict the entire old testament?
Freakin christians...you want to have your cake and eat it too |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Grotto, you zealot, you. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were trying to convert me.
I made that walking on water/ice joke a couple days ago, possibly on this very thread. Also, as you know, Jesus was offering a new deal, so anyone could become one of the "chosen people." Chronologically it's not a contradiction.
Also... "dumb eagle"? Seriously? |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yes seriously.
Anyone who spouts out the drivel he does.....I mean geez!
He is blind, arrogant and stupid....a good combination for a politician but poison for someone spouting religion.
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| Jesus was offering a new deal, so anyone could become one of the "chosen people." Chronologically it's not a contradiction. |
It is a contradiction Kermo. The old testament is the jews gods contract with 'his chosen people'.
Now all you christians say your god cant lie.....soooooo if the only path to your god is through jesus that means your god has been lying to the jews for eons!
Like I said you cant have your cake and eat it to....you have to recognize that there are many cakes in the bakery and many recipes to make them. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
Yes seriously.
Anyone who spouts out the drivel he does.....I mean geez!
He is blind, arrogant and stupid....a good combination for a politician but poison for someone spouting religion.
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| Jesus was offering a new deal, so anyone could become one of the "chosen people." Chronologically it's not a contradiction. |
It is a contradiction Kermo. The old testament is the jews gods contract with 'his chosen people'.
Now all you christians say your god cant lie.....soooooo if the only path to your god is through jesus that means your god has been lying to the jews for eons!
Like I said you cant have your cake and eat it to....you have to recognize that there are many cakes in the bakery and many recipes to make them. |
You are very uninformed. The Jews were told to expect a Messiah. Jesus was a Jew and claimed to be that Messiah. God told the Israelites through Moses,
" I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. "
Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah. Those Jews who believed that he was, came to be known as Christians (eventually, at first Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism). Those who did not, and do not, are not Christian but rather, Jewish. |
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