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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| When Bill Clinton vists Canada he is treated like a rock star. So it does have a lot to do with Bush. |
I disagree with this message. Maybe Clinton is and maybe he isn't treated like a rock star.
Still, W. Bush is the best pretext Canadians have had in years to voice their deep-seated anti-American feelings. I saw a recent Peter Jennings interview where he said he was raised on anti-Americanisms. Canadians have no independent identity of their own; they only know, and defiantly so, that they are not Americans. Classic chip-on-the-shoulder mentality.
Review their text books, for example, and see what they teach their children about the U.S. That's been going on much longer than the W. Bush Administration.
And can anyone point out the last positive thing any Canadian has said about the U.S. on this board that isn't undermined by a "but"? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:57 am Post subject: Re: The Canadian-American political rift |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
| I would think that relations between one of the least monitored borders in the world has been good since the end of the War of 1812....in 1814. |
The War of 1812 was fought between the U.S. and Britain, and it happened to involve Canadian territory by geographical accident.
Canadians, looking for importance, mischaracterize this war as one fought between Canada and the U.S....forgetting that Canada wasn't even a nation-state in 1812, for example, or that Washington and London, and only Washington and London, declared war in this conflict. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree with this message. Maybe Clinton is and maybe he isn't treated like a rock star. |
He pretty much is.
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| And can anyone point out the last positive thing any Canadian has said about the U.S. on this board that isn't undermined by a "but"? |
Just about any time I say something good about NASA, back when we were talking about aid per capita and I mentioned that the US is quite generous when you factor in individual donations, here and there I say good things and leave it at that. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Search on .ca sites:
I like Bill Clinton - 22
I hate Bill Clinton - 9
On .us sites:
I like Bill Clinton - 8
I hate Bill Clinton - 14
On .ca sites:
I like George Bush - 45
I hate George Bush - 105
On .us sites:
I like George Bush - 45
I hate George Bush - 581 |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Lastly, let's see how the newspapers reported Clinton's visit to Montreal. Since he's American and Canadians are all biased towards Americans, it should be just full of negative coverage. Let's see...
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| Martin levelled his criticism of U.S. President George W. Bush's environmental stance at a United Nations climate change conference last week in Montreal. He rubbed salt in the wound two days later, returning to the conference to share a podium with Bill Clinton, Bush's predecessor and political nemesis. |
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Martin's campaign touched down in Montreal Friday, so that he could not only share a stage, but also an opinion with former U.S. President Bill Clinton -- that the world must do more to address climate change.
Despite the optics of the event, coming in the midst of an election campaign, both men denied the day was aimed at swaying voters.
"In terms of the politics I wouldn't make too much of it," Bill Clinton told reporters eager to hear the former president weigh in on the Canadian election campaign. |
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| Or perhaps in the U.S. in 1992, when then President George H.W. Bush could not relate to the woman asking how the national debt affected him. "I'm not sure I get it," he replied, allowing Democratic challenger Bill Clinton to reach out with folksy tales from Arkansas. |
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But Clinton encouraged the delegates to press on.
"There's no longer any serious doubt that climate change is real, accelerating and caused by human activities. We are uncertain about how deep and time of arrival of the consequences, but we are quite clear that they will not be good," said Clinton. |
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"And we know with every passing year we get more and more objective data (that) if we had a serious disciplined effort to apply on a large-scale, existing clean energy and energy conservation technologies -- we could meet and surpass the Kyoto targets easily in a way that would strengthen, not weaken, our economy," said Clinton to applause from the delegates.
Clinton's address was been designated as a "side event" to the conference. However, it was held in the main conference hall, and played to a large, admiring audience. |
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| As a very crafty Democratic politician, Clinton surely knew that by appearing with Martin for a photo-op, he was indeed involving himself in our politics. |
That's all of them. I'm surprised Clinton made it out of the conference alive! After all, a whole one article called him crafty. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Clinton's book signing a big hit in Toronto
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/08/05/clinton040805.html
Clinton's Toronto appearance draws thousands
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1091707079657_98?hub=Canada
Crowds camp out for Clinton T.O. book signing
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040804/clinton_toronto_040804?s_name=&no_ads=
http://www.randomhouse.ca/readmag/volume5issue1/columns/scoop.htm
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Who is more magnetic than Bill Clinton? No one! This man is overflowing with charisma. As a self-professed Clinton supporter, I told our national accounts marketing director that if Bill Clinton agreed to do a signing in Toronto, then I had to meet him. And meet him I did!
On a sunny day in August, over 3,000 people waited in line, some for as many as 20 hours, for a chance to meet the former President. Arriving fashionably late, President Clinton, dressed in a dark blue suit and pink tie, signed books for the first 1,000 people in line. He not only shook hands and made eye contact with each person, but he seemed to take a genuine interest in his public. Then, to the dismay of the Secret Service, he greeted fans outside the bookstore in a frenzied walk-about.
It was insane! The screams and cheers were deafening. This truly had to be the most attended, most reported book signing in Canadian history. The atmosphere was electric and I was a witness to it all, working the event and standing a mere three feet from one of my idols. Some fans even started cheering ��Bill Clinton for Prime Minister.�� |
It's undeniable, he's a rock star in Canada. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote:
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Canadians have no independent identity of their own; they only know, and defiantly so, that they are not Americans. Classic chip-on-the-shoulder mentality.
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Well that's not true. But you've never lived or grown up there so you wouldn't know much about being Canadian, eh?  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I disagree with this message. Maybe Clinton is and maybe he isn't treated like a rock star. |
He pretty much is.
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| And can anyone point out the last positive thing any Canadian has said about the U.S. on this board that isn't undermined by a "but"? |
Just about any time I say something good about NASA, back when we were talking about aid per capita and I mentioned that the US is quite generous when you factor in individual donations, here and there I say good things and leave it at that. |
Mith: I should have placed a disclaimer here, because I'm fully cognizant that my comments don't apply to you -- and a couple of others here. Your remarks are usually professionally delivered. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
Gopher wrote:
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Canadians have no independent identity of their own; they only know, and defiantly so, that they are not Americans. Classic chip-on-the-shoulder mentality.
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Well that's not true. But you've never lived or grown up there so you wouldn't know much about being Canadian, eh? |
I'm no expert on Canadian affairs. However, I've spent a little time in Canada and have known Canadians in a couple of settings, not all of them in the preachy context that vexes me so much.
Mainly, I got to know many Canadians in S. Korea and the more honest ones reported this to me, esp. the text book issues -- as in how Canadians believe "Manifest Destiny" or "the Monroe Doctrine" were especially crafted with Canada in mind. I also reviewed a recent publication in my campus library that treats this issue, that is, how Canadian text books treat the U.S. and U.S. history -- steeply slanted against the U.S. in multiple ways. Not to mention the remarks and commentary from the loudmouth, preachy, anti-American Canadians who tend to inhabit S. Korea in general and post on this board -- like the anonymous one who preached to me on Vietnam once in a Daegu bar with a raised voice for over an hour when I just wanted to have a drink and some casual conversation...and by the way, what does the Vietnam War have to do with W. Bush, for those of you who insist that the resentment is just about W. Bush?
Maybe "chip-on-the-shoulder" was a bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said "maple-leaf-on-the-backpack" instead. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| It's undeniable, he's a rock star in Canada. |
That is sad. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
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| It's undeniable, he's a rock star in Canada. |
That is sad. |
Well I wouldn't say he's a rock star in Canada but he's certainly well-liked.
He's intelligent, liberal, and not a religious freak. He can string more than 3 sentences together in a coherent manner. That's 4 reasons right there.
Canadians don't give a rat's ass about the sex-with-Monica thing either, we consider private lives to really BE private--his business only. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| ...Canadians don't give a rat's ass about the sex-with-Monica thing either, we consider private lives to really BE private--his business only. |
Not entirely true. Definitely some Canadians don't give a rat's ass, perhaps even many, or most don't. But some do. I was once lectured by two Canadian women on the immorality of the Clintons' marriage. These two women claimed that Bill and Hillary's marriage was just "a business deal," and they went on and on about how offensive it was. (My guess is that W. Bush has since given them bigger and better fish to fry.)
What you said about about Canadians, however, can also be said about some in the U.S., even the Republicans who went after him so rabidly...they didn't really care about the principle of the claim, it was just a good pretext and got them a lot of press attn.
Now, all of the Bible-thumping televangelists and rednecks are another story, of course... |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| canuckistan wrote: |
Gopher wrote:
| Quote: |
Canadians have no independent identity of their own; they only know, and defiantly so, that they are not Americans. Classic chip-on-the-shoulder mentality.
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Well that's not true. But you've never lived or grown up there so you wouldn't know much about being Canadian, eh? |
I'm no expert on Canadian affairs. However, I've spent a little time in Canada and have known Canadians in a couple of settings, not all of them in the preachy context that vexes me so much. |
Canadians are immersed in American media (cause ours sucks) from day one and many of us visit America just for shopping or tourism. This puts many Canadians at the same level of understanding of your country as you have of ours.
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Mainly, I got to know many Canadians in S. Korea and the more honest ones reported this to me, esp. the text book issues -- as in how Canadians believe "Manifest Destiny" or "the Monroe Doctrine" were especially crafted with Canada in mind. |
American textbooks gloss over many significant things, or so my "more honest" American friends tell me. Biases towards Mexico, the annexation of Hawaii, Britain (as evil during the Independence war). Then there is ofcourse FRANCE (freedom fries anyone), I can only imagine what your textbooks say about them, considering the image you give off of France through your media.
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I also reviewed a recent publication in my campus library that treats this issue, that is, how Canadian text books treat the U.S. and U.S. history -- steeply slanted against the U.S. in multiple ways. |
Lovely referencing here. Some publication in some library. Even if it is true, just one?
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| Not to mention the remarks and commentary from the loudmouth, preachy, anti-American Canadians who tend to inhabit S. Korea in general and post on this board -- like the anonymous one who preached to me on Vietnam once in a Daegu bar with a raised voice for over an hour when I just wanted to have a drink and some casual conversation...and by the way, what does the Vietnam War have to do with W. Bush, for those of you who insist that the resentment is just about W. Bush? |
I could go on about how horribly arrogant and ignorant some Americans I have met have been and give you a few examples. I don't attack Americans, but even if I did, I wouldn't be using such limited arguments.
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Maybe "chip-on-the-shoulder" was a bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said "maple-leaf-on-the-backpack" instead. |
While I don't have one on my bag (as I see no need to), if a Canadian wants to do that, you have no right to say he shouldn't. Americans sewed flags on their clothes or backpacks until about the mid 80's (as many expats who were expats then have attested to). Hell, some Americans had the flag tattooed to themselves (mostly army from what I hear though). Who gives you the right to tell someone not to be proud of their country? Do the flags blind you? How do they hurt you?
You are no different than the Canadians that you hate. You have a very deep bias against Canadians. While many of your beefs are valid, you seem to only think in black and white. Your beefs should be centred on the people who cause them, but you just attack all Canadians except a select few who have been added to the "Gopher approves of me club". There are bad ones, good ones, preachy ones, reserved ones, etc., just the same as Americans, British, Koreans, etc. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| American textbooks gloss over many significant things, or so my "more honest" American friends tell me. Biases towards Mexico, the annexation of Hawaii, Britain (as evil during the Independence war). Then there is ofcourse FRANCE (freedom fries anyone), I can only imagine what your textbooks say about them, considering the image you give off of France through your media. |
Clearly you're familiar with the longstanding tradition of self-criticism in U.S. scholarship, punctuated by people like Gore Vidal and, perhaps most famously, Howard Zinn.
Does Canada have such a tradition and such a powerful current of self-criticism in its historiography?
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Lovely referencing here. Some publication in some library. Even if it is true, just one? |
This isn't a dissertation; it's a posting board. If I had had the cite, I would have created a link.
Yes, there's only one text at the moment. I believe that looking at your own political, social, and cultural history through the perspective of a collection of foreign history texts is a new idea, and, in any case, is only being done in the U.S.
Unless you have a Canadian text to cite...
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I could go on about how horribly arrogant and ignorant some Americans I have met have been and give you a few examples. I don't attack Americans, but even if I did, I wouldn't be using such limited arguments. |
No doubt you could. Americans don't have a "we're not Canada!" chip on their shoulder in any case. There is nothing comparable in the U.S. to the Canadian beer commercial that features "Joe Canada," to cite but one high-profile example.
As for the rest of your text...is there a question in there somewhere? |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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