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bellum99
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: don't need to know
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 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: What makes something racist? |
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If you say something negative about a particular race that is generally not true then it is racist.
But what if it is generally true and obvious. I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest. Is this a racist comment if it is true?
Sometimes I wonder about PC.
Last edited by bellum99 on Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IwalkAlone
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Racism is stereotyping an individual based on the entire race before getting to know the individual. Like judging a religion on one bad priest. Even if 99% of koreans are corrupt or <enter racist assumption>...to make such an assumption about a korean based on that knowledge is still a racist judgement call. I think everyone is clean until they mess up their slate.
On a similar note, I grew up in the deep south, step-dad was a racist, almost threw me out of the house for "dating" a black girl. He didn't like her because she was black, and that was it. He thought all black people were gangsters and drugees. Jumping to conclusions based on race is racism, or at least one way to define it. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest |
That is an opinion statement (yours in this case).
It is also racist or at the very least laced with prejudice. I think that you could define racism, without the PC crap being involved, as making a judgement call on a large group of people (and by extension on individuals from that goup) based on superficial information and/or personal experience with a very few people of that group. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Individuals are indiviuals, the world over.
Does anything else need to be said? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| making a judgement call on a large group of people (and by extension on individuals from that goup) based on superficial information and/or personal experience with a very few people of that group. |
Do you have opinions on the character of Koreans Homer? What % of the 40 Million population of Korea have you known and experienced? If you personally know 39 million Koreans, then i'm prepared to accept your value judgements. If you've only met, lets say, less than 1% of all koreans, then your views are totally not valid.
Quote Iwalkalone:
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| Like judging a religion on one bad priest. |
hardly. type "Paedophile catholic priests" into googles search engine and be prepared to be overwhelmed with data from the four corners of the earth. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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The dictionary definition says something like "Making a judgement based solely on race". The keyword for me being SOLELY. That means, if there is evidence for your judgement, then it`s not racist. So, saying "Black people are generally more muscular and do better at muscular and speed based sports" is not racist. We can look at the data and find that this is true. It`s important to put the word "generally" in there though. If you write "Black people are better at sports" it looks a bit basic and is misleading, because we don`t know whether you mean ALL black people, or if you`re refering to a statistical tendency.
I believe you can make negative assessments of races, and other groups, IF you have some evidence. You could say New Zealanders are in general more aggressive than most groups. I would have to agree, because New Zealand has a higher percentage of GBH assualts per capita than most other countries, and definitely more than other western countries. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
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| I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest |
That is an opinion statement (yours in this case).
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Well not really. If he had written "I think Korea is more corrupt and dishonest than the west" he would have been bang on the money. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
The dictionary definition says something like "Making a judgement based solely on race". The keyword for me being SOLELY. That means, if there is evidence for your judgement, then it`s not racist. So, saying "Black people are generally more muscular and do better at muscular and speed based sports" is not racist. We can look at the data and find that this is true. It`s important to put the word "generally" in there though. If you write "Black people are better at sports" it looks a bit basic and is misleading, because we don`t know whether you mean ALL black people, or if you`re refering to a statistical tendency.
I believe you can make negative assessments of races, and other groups, IF you have some evidence. You could say New Zealanders are in general more aggressive than most groups. I would have to agree, because New Zealand has a higher percentage of GBH assualts per capita than most other countries, and definitely more than other western countries. |
negative statement = racist statement, apparently.
"racism" is probably the most abused word in the language. By invoking it, truth and reality are easily bypassed and all debate hushed. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: Re: What makes something racist? |
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| bellum99 wrote: |
| If you say something negative about a particular race that is generally not true then it is racist. But what if it is generally true and obvious. I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest. If this a racist comment if it is true? Sometimes I wonder about PC. |
racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
racist:
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racist
A Country of Liars
by Kim Dae-joong, Chosun Ilbo (July 3, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507030027.html
Perjury Rises Due to Light Penalties
By Moon Gwang-lip, Korea Times (April 4, 2005)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200504/kt2005040416310010230.htm
78 Percent of Koreans Consider Corruption Level Serious
Donga.com (June 17, 2005)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2005061709768
Income Tax to Be Levied on Bribes
by Jung Sung-ki, Korea Times (April 22, 2005)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200504/kt2005042217230511990.htm |
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TheFonz
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: North Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:43 am Post subject: |
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I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest. If this a racist comment if it is true?
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To generalize about all Koreans would be racist, but to say, "Most Koreans I encountered were often corrupt and dishonest." When you say this you don't generalize about a whole race, but talk about a select group you encountered to be corrupt and dishonest. Stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason, but don't hold this against every Korean you encounter or pre-judge them just on the basis of them being Korean.
Last edited by TheFonz on Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| "racism" is probably the most abused word in the language. By invoking it, truth and reality are easily bypassed and all debate hushed. |
Odd, but I don't see debate being hushed ...in fact, I see you engaging in it. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| TheFonz wrote: |
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I think Koreans are often corrupt and dishonest. If this a racist comment if it is true?
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To generalize about all Koreans would be racist, but to say, "Most Koreans I encountered were often corrupt and dishonest." When you say this you don't generalize about a whole race, but talk about a select group you encountered to be corrupt and dishonest. |
You don`t have to restrict yourself to personal experience. In fact that is not the best way to get a picture of a large social group. Drawing on research data is better. We can know Korea is more corrupt than the west by looking at the "Internation Corruption Perception Index" which gives Korea a score of 5 out of 10, significantly below all the western countries that we come from, but significantly higher than countries like Chad and Bangladesh. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Racism is the belief in race. It is wrong. Being an "anti racist" is an equally profound flaw.
If you were to say "Asians are jerks" some racists would say "yeah!" and other racists would say "you're prejudiced if you think you can say that about all Asians!" but the truly wise man asks "what is Asians? am I Asians? are you Asians? is my cousin the korean-born american-raised adoptee Asians? is the white guy born in Singapore Asians? what do you mean Asians?" |
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vlcupper
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
Racism is the belief in race. It is wrong. Being an "anti racist" is an equally profound flaw.
If you were to say "Asians are jerks" some racists would say "yeah!" and other racists would say "you're prejudiced if you think you can say that about all Asians!" but the truly wise man asks "what is Asians? am I Asians? are you Asians? is my cousin the korean-born american-raised adoptee Asians? is the white guy born in Singapore Asians? what do you mean Asians?" |
But the wiser man would say. "Who the *beep* cares?" |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| If you've only met, lets say, less than 1% of all koreans, then your views are totally not valid. |
Never pretended that they were Rapier...thats the whole point!
You may offer an opinion on something, that opinion may be positive or negative. However it remains just that: an opinion.
By the very nature of an opinion, it can be contradicted and debated by other people who have different opinion.
Also, there is a vast difference between an informed opinion and a opinion based on some sort of emotional knee-jerk reaction.
For example in another thread about travel in Vietnam, there was the opinion of a westerner who went there as a tourist and had some negative experience which he then applied to Vietnamese people as a whole (wether with intent of not).
Then , that opinion was put in perspective by a couple of westerners who lived in Vietnam for a couple of years. Theirs was an informed opinion. Hence, perhaps it could be seen as more valid.
See the logic behind that?
As for racism: blanket statement that aim to put one group as inferior to another group are pretty much the very core of racism. |
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