|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
 Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Question about foreigners in Korea |
 |
|
| SPINOZA wrote: |
My question, straight to the point now, without further ado, is quite simply the following: We're all very familiar with theses that state Koreans hate foreigners. My observations don't suggest that at all, but that's just me. Actually, to be fair, I've met the two biggest jerk-off Koreans in the last week - one a girl in Family Mart, rude little b1tch, and one a rude guy in a raw fish restaurant - little tw@t. But...last night there's no doubt that I CONTRIBUTED to Koreans disliking foreigners, asssuming that's actually true. My behaviour sucked a big one.
* To what extent, if at all, do we foreigners contribute to our poor treatment here? We all accept that Koreans piling into the elevator when people are trying to get out is irritating to say the very least...give an example of some real jerk-off waygook behaviour you think annoys the heck out of the Koreans.
* Give an example of when YOU have been a total arsehole to a Korean or bunch of Koreans that you've really regretted. |
First off, I don't think the the majority of the negative comments about Korea, at least here on this board, come from a thesis "Koreans hate foreigners". I think Koreans, as a general rule, have a tendency to be somewhat more xenophobic than the average person in our home countries ( US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK ), though I can't speak much for South Africa. Xenophobia is way different from "I hate foreigners". Here is my take on Korean xenophobia.
Koreans see themselves as a closed group that are highly unique. They are focused on "in group/out group" paradigms, rathers than primarily veiwing people as human beings ( with a lot in common ) first and foremost, with cultural and national differences as a secondary factor in interpersonal relations. Thier education system makes them inclined to accept and hold negative stereotypes ( and neutral or positive ones too ) of the westerner more easily. They are inclined to see us as less trustworthy, and to assert thier home ground advantage over us in work related conflict. They feel they are a homogenous group into which we will never fit. They are inclined against inter marriage. They are inclined feel they are a superior group, and the centre of the world. They are inclined to nationalism. They are inclined to blame outside influences for thier problems, and have a national victim mentalilty. They are nationally very proud and sensitive to insult, and they hold grudges well. All of this makes it very hard to integrate, and I mean truly and deeply integrate into the society. You can settle in here and have a good life, you will never be fully integrated. They are too concerned with the concept of "Koreanness" for that. By contrast, in my country, if a Korean couple immigrate and have a child that is fully raised there, we will call him/her a New Zealander, no problem. Not so here for the majority. They don't even consider Kyopo's to be "real Koreans".
All of this is not to my liking, and contrary to the cultural beliefs of heterogeny and inclusiveness I was brought up with in New Zealand. I wish it were different, because I don't hate Korea, I love it, and will be here a long long time. However this is absolutely not the same as hating foreigners. They might even like you, very much, and admire and respect you. But you will always be, for the majority, profoundly alien, not a full member of society. And I think that is sad. I'm not angry about it though. And I love my life here, and have many good Korean friends, a good job, a Korean girlfriend that I will marry, and basically a great life. Does that make me a "whiner" or an "apologist"? I reject both terms. I call myself a clear headed free thinker, and I go issue by issue as much as I can.
I've been here a long time, and know to a certain degree what I'm talking about. I have no axe to grind, but I'd prefer if race relations were more advanced and I don't see a problem with talking about that. I don't like the "defend the honor of Korea at all costs" stance of the so called hard core apologists. I don't think they are objective, and thier efforts on this board often seek to minimise people's negative experiences here and redirect blame back to the westerner. I believe now that hard core apologists have an agenda, and I think I've worked it out. They have comitted to Korea, they have worked out a way to be happy here, and hearing negative things here forces them to confront some of the compromises and mental twists and turns they have had to make to adjust here. The whole "I'm having a good time so if you're not there is something wrong with you" and the "If you dont like it why don't you just leave?" crowd are somewhat sickening to me. You can like Korea and have legitimate complaints. You can be a good conscientious worker and still get ripped off. You can be an upright person and have bad things happen to you here because you're a foreigner.
I also don't like the "These people are disgusting and rude" and "All Koreans are racists and liars" crowd. I think they also have a personal agenda. These people have had negative experiences and have projected onto the whole Korean society. Either they have not been here long enough to get a wide and varied picture of the place, or they are inclined to racism themselves. Too often it's a case of "Different equals wrong". Too often they have not thought the issues through deeply enough and have not considered the other side. For example, your boss wants to hold your plane ticket till the end of the contract, and you feel he doesn't trust you. You might not have considered that his business has been hurt in the past by several midnight runners. It's a matter of not knowing all the facts. This is just an example off the top of my head, and not a great one, but you get the picture.
So I don't like either extreme position. You can have a great life here, but there is some adjusting and compromising to be done. And no way is it the rosy heaven the hardcore apologists would like to make out. And clear eyed free thinking on the issues, and honest deep inquirey and non-agenda'd ( a new word! ) debate are what will make this board a rich resource for foreigners teaching in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
periwinkle
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, I've got another one. This 1 I do feel a little bad about, because I don't think the woman meant anything by it- her excuse was that she was uneducated. My excuse was that I was (again) at the end of my rope (on my way to the physical therapist- I was in a lot of pain).
I was in a kim bap jip, eating yuk kae jang. Been there before, ordered same thing from same woman. Only this time, while I'm eating, she makes a big scene that I can eat such a spicy soup, then laughs hysterically as I blow my nose (had a cold, too). Everyone in the (fairly full) restaurant looks over. Normally, I'd just be passe, but I was like, f- this. I told her I was irritated at her attitude (I was mortified by all the attention), gave the cashier my 4000 won, and left. Loss of face for both parties. Everybody has bad days, but that just made it worse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If any one thing makes you negatively inclined against Koreans you need a rethink. And vice verca for them. Only if something has happened again and again, or if you have read or heard about similar things happening to many people can you start to infer a behavioural pattern or attitiude and make a legitimate comment. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hobophobic
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Location: Sinjeong negorie mokdong oh ga ri samgyup sal fighting
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The world is full of *beep*.
Somedays you shovel the *beep*, and on others you may get *beep* on.
There are going to be times when you could/n't really give a *beep*.
Still yet, you may want to kick the *beep* out of someone or fawk sh1tup from time to time.
Once in awhile it might seem like you just have to put up with tons of *beep*.
In the end, *beep* happens, and for whatever reason, it stinks all around no matter where it is coming from. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Question about foreigners in Korea |
|
|
Satori makes many good points. Several are obvious, but some things bear repeating and he does it well. Just a few points I'd like to comment on...
| Satori wrote: |
| They are inclined to see us [foreigners] as less trustworthy... |
(I know you're not stating an absolute, Satori.)
Yes and no, it varies. It depends on the circumstances, often on the ethnicity or nationality of the foreigner, and it isn't static -- Korean perceptions and attitudes will change given enough time and counterevidence. (and in reaction to occasional upswings in nationalism that are unrelated to what any of us do.)
From what I've seen, Korean companies don't usually fear that they'll be the ones getting mugged in business deals with Western or Japanese partners, or that the foreign partner will be the one wriggling out of their obligations. Such worries as they have are that the foreign partner will take advantage of contract terms or legal loopholes (specifically "legal" as defined and enforced overseas, not on the Korean partner's home turf), not that the foreign company will outright violate the contract, break the law, or resort to corruption, collusion, etc. to get what they want without "paying" for it. That is to say, the Korean side will often assume and make strategy based on the foreign partner being MORE trustworthy than they themselves are.
These are generalisations, but to me they're of the "Koreans eat rice & kimchee" variety. Commercial attaches of Western embassies in Seoul can, if they've been here long enough, recite you a litany of horror stories that long ago (this isn't anything new) earned Korean companies a fairly bad reputation. The kind of problems that Korean firms are encountering in China today will look very "taste of your own medicine-ish" to expat businessmen and diplomats who've been around the block in Korea.
Those are observations based on other foreigners' experiences. Here are some based on my own.
I'll frequently need official permits & approvals for things that government agencies and the civil servants working there just aren't accustomed to seeing a non-Korean apply for. I'll call up about something and they'll ask to speak to a Korean instead of me. (no, it's not the language barrier) Or I'll go in in person with a Korean, and they'll assume I'm just some whitey friend of that Korean's, or that I'm working for that Korean -- when it's the case that that Korean is working with or for me, and I'm the one actually calling the shots.
Getting to my point, what so often happens in these conversations (over the phone or in person) is that the Korean I'm with will, in effect, vouch for me, argue in my behalf, stand as my "character witness" in an attempt to convince the officials that my request/application/project/intentions are on the level, all the T's crossed & I's dotted. And many, many is the time that the Koreans who are "representing" me will use this bit of logic on their fellow locals: "No, no. He's a Westerner -- he doesn't lie". (yep.) They're not saying this to butter me up; consider the situation. They're using any means of persuasion they think will help move the process along.
I can't speak for other posters, but I've received a mix of both favourable and unfavourable consideration in situations like those above, purely because of my race or nationality. The "unfavourable" treatment or consideration is simply the "Koreans can, but foreigners can't" mindset. Has nothing to do with me individually, or my country, or my culture, etc. However, the "favourable" consideration does: "He's a Westerner -- he doesn't lie". (which I'm sure some readers will want to interpret as "he's a foreigner -- he won't know how to trick us"  )
To sum up, I don't think Koreans generally regard us as untrustworthy, whether "us" means specifically Westerners or all foreigners in general. Yes, you can see foreign bankers & investors being spanked and vilified in the media, Schatten being blamed for this & that, crimes by American GIs, etc. But to me, that's "foreigner = bad", not "foreigner=untrustworthy". The former is unthinking and political, the latter actually requires some convincing based on personal observation. And I believe that most Koreans really do think we're relatively trustworthy (ethical & honest).
| Quote: |
| All of this makes it very hard to integrate, and I mean truly and deeply integrate into the society. You can settle in here and have a good life, you will never be fully integrated. They are too concerned with the concept of "Koreanness" for that. By contrast, in my country, if a Korean couple immigrate and have a child that is fully raised there, we will call him/her a New Zealander, no problem. Not so here for the majority. They don't even consider Kyopo's to be "real Koreans". |
Are you comparing Koreans who _immigrate_ to your country with foreign nationals who live & work in Korea with no intention of taking up Korean citizenship?
| Quote: |
| Does that make me a "whiner" or an "apologist"? I reject both terms. I call myself a clear headed free thinker, and I go issue by issue as much as I can. |
I would guess everyone rejects those terms. Hmm... but I bet if we took a head count, there'd be more self-confessed whiners than apologists.
| Quote: |
| I believe now that hard core apologists have an agenda, and I think I've worked it out. They have comitted to Korea, they have worked out a way to be happy here, and hearing negative things here forces them to confront some of the compromises and mental twists and turns they have had to make to adjust here. The whole "I'm having a good time so if you're not there is something wrong with you" and the "If you dont like it why don't you just leave?" crowd are somewhat sickening to me. You can like Korea and have legitimate complaints. You can be a good conscientious worker and still get ripped off. You can be an upright person and have bad things happen to you here because you're a foreigner. |
Yes. The drooling "Gosh, I'm having such a great time here, Korea's been so good to me, I'm loving life -- aren't you? AREN'T YOU??!" sort of threads. They come off as ... well, just as you said and as I've underlined above. I don't see them as anything more than attempts to convince themselves "I'm okay, you're so-so". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you do 10 genuinely kind acts, and 1 semi-rude act to the same person, they will likely tell all of their friends about the rudeness and never tell them about the kindness.
There's nothing in that situation that makes you a rude waygookin.
Drunk, maybe...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
JongnoGuru, nice to see civilised discussion on this often prickly topic. I stand well corrected about the trust issue. And it was nice to get some input from a non teacher, as it brings to light a whole other area of contact with Korean culture and different perspectives.
About the comparing of immigrant to New Zealand. No Im making a direct comparison between a couple immigrating to Korea and having and raising a child there, and the same situation but with a Korean couple moving to New Zealand and having and raising a child there. The child in New Zealand would be considered a New Zealander, without doubt. The child in Korea would not. I think this shows something of the exclusivity of the Korean culture, and the profound "in group/out group" thinking. This thinking affects us as visiting workers though. But the comparison was between two equivilant situations, to make the point about exclusivity.
And your last paragraph, well, glad I'm not the only one who has thought this.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I think this shows something of the exclusivity of the Korean culture |
I don't think the comparison holds very well. You are comparing someone entering an immigrant culture to the experience of someone attempting to enter an ethnic-based culture.
The concept of naturalized citizenship (and group membership) is relatively new. The British rejected American claims of naturalizing immigrants from Britain as late as 1812. It was part of the cause of a war. The British view was 'once an Englishman, always an Englishman'. Quite a few European countries are struggling with that idea now. Is German-ness, for example, a cultural thing or a genetic thing? Koreans are even newer to the discussion. I would say that Koreans haven't really started to grapple with it yet. As their population ages and the number of 'guest workers' increases, they will begin to have to deal with the issue.
My second example may sound trivial, but I don't think it is. I watched new kids struggle to find a place when they moved in to the small high school where I taught. Cute kids, or kids with more than average athletic ability didn't have too much trouble, but everyone else did. Small towns are quite exclusive. The big social event of the year was Homecoming. Only people who graduated from that high school were allowed. Anyone who moved there as an adult, no matter how many years ago, had to attend the Outcast Party. Even teachers who worked at the school for 20 years were not allowed in to the 'in-group' party. In-group/out-group ways of looking at the world are very deep-seated and very human.
Generally, I've found the Koreans that I've come in contact with to be surprisingly welcoming. The times that I've felt they haven't been have been almost all in connection with laws and rights where I feel the politicians haven't kept up with the public feeling. My friends have been startled at how restrictive the E-2 visa is and that we weren't allowed to buy land or start a business until the big collapse of '97. Especially those friends who had studied and worked in the West. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't get too upset with Koreans much, but it's comments like I heard today that just make me want to roll my eyes a lot:
Me: I'm going to Beijing soon, I hope to visit the Palace and Great Wall
Ajosshi: Ah yes...I went there many years ago. Palace is very big. Many rooms. However...It is very rude...R-U-D, rude...It is bigger than Kyungbokgung, have you been to Kyungbokgung? Very beautiful. Chinese palace has many rooms. Very rude. Kyungbok palace is small and sophisticated. Chinese palaces are too large and rude. Anyway, I hope to you enjoying China culture!
Me: (  ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shooter McGavin
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Location: ROK
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| My second example may sound trivial, but I don't think it is. I watched new kids struggle to find a place when they moved in to the small high school where I taught. Cute kids, or kids with more than average athletic ability didn't have too much trouble, but everyone else did. Small towns are quite exclusive. The big social event of the year was Homecoming. Only people who graduated from that high school were allowed. Anyone who moved there as an adult, no matter how many years ago, had to attend the Outcast Party. Even teachers who worked at the school for 20 years were not allowed in to the 'in-group' party. In-group/out-group ways of looking at the world are very deep-seated and very human. |
I was talking with the other foreign teacher I work with about how the Koreans at our school seem to think that we are friendless. She has been here awhile, and pointed out that Koreans often are friends with the same people they were in Kindergarten with for their whole life. That's it, just the people you met as a kid. So if it's that hard for Koreans to get into new friendships, maybe this whole thing about foreigners not being able to integrate into Korean society is less "you're foreign" than "where were you when I was six?" This is my theory, based on what she told me. I think it explains the actions of people here who seemingly like you, but never actually meet with you socially. I don't want to say that "foreignness" plays no role at all, but maybe its not as big as we think. What do you guys think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think this shows something of the exclusivity of the Korean culture |
I don't think the comparison holds very well. You are comparing someone entering an immigrant culture to the experience of someone attempting to enter an ethnic-based culture.
|
That's a strong explanation. Doesn't mean I have to like it though... Sure it's a valid reason. I guess, and this may not be that logical, that I expect countries to adapt and change faster today than they did 200 years ago because of the internet, media, geographical knowledge and international travel and so on. How does all this "hub of asia" talk jibe with this "Well we're still getting used to all you weird white people" stuff? If they want to be modern, let's get on with it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Shooter McGavin wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| My second example may sound trivial, but I don't think it is. I watched new kids struggle to find a place when they moved in to the small high school where I taught. Cute kids, or kids with more than average athletic ability didn't have too much trouble, but everyone else did. Small towns are quite exclusive. The big social event of the year was Homecoming. Only people who graduated from that high school were allowed. Anyone who moved there as an adult, no matter how many years ago, had to attend the Outcast Party. Even teachers who worked at the school for 20 years were not allowed in to the 'in-group' party. In-group/out-group ways of looking at the world are very deep-seated and very human. |
I was talking with the other foreign teacher I work with about how the Koreans at our school seem to think that we are friendless. She has been here awhile, and pointed out that Koreans often are friends with the same people they were in Kindergarten with for their whole life. That's it, just the people you met as a kid. So if it's that hard for Koreans to get into new friendships, maybe this whole thing about foreigners not being able to integrate into Korean society is less "you're foreign" than "where were you when I was six?" This is my theory, based on what she told me. I think it explains the actions of people here who seemingly like you, but never actually meet with you socially. I don't want to say that "foreignness" plays no role at all, but maybe its not as big as we think. What do you guys think? |
It's a matter of which group take precedence. They will stick with thier school, work, or uni peer group and shun other Koreans socially. But watch how quickly they will gather around the concept of being Korean when an insult to thier national pride ocurrs like, say, the Ono skating incident. Suddenly they become "One Korea". How many times have asked a Korean "What do you think of...?" and recieved the answer "Well, Koreans think...". I think thier national identity is incredibly strong. Think about what seperates a Korean from another Korean who "was not there when he was six", a number of shared experiences are missing, but there is a wealth of common ground too. Now think about the differences with a foreigner who not only was "not there was he was six", but also a, b, c, d, e , etc etc. So I'm not too swayed by your theory. But it was a nice shot! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
I may think of some instance where I've been obnoxious, but generally I like to think of myself as wondrously gracious, helping halmonis on steep staircases, letting others cut in front while boarding a bus, smiling at small children, using pretty Korean courtesies.
However, it's impossible to know how many people I've offended by accidentally using my left hand (I'm a south-paw) or wiping my nose at the table. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
