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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| indytrucks wrote: |
I have a question.
Why are so many of you deriving such great pleasure in seeing this man exposed as a fraud? |
It's a good question, Indy. And were it possible, I'd like to ask everyone that question: not just people on this forum who are gloating over Hwang's downfall, but foreigners not on this forum who are doing the same, and perhaps most usefully, the Koreans themselves.
Outside of Dave's, I don't run with the teacher crowd very much, but this thread and several of the others on the topic suggest that it's a widely shared sentiment, this particular schadenfreude over Hwang's spectacular stumble. I went to a bar full of expats and also had a pretty good-sized gathering of foreigners and Koreans at the house before Christmas, and as you'd expect the subject of Hwang came up several times. What you've read on Dave's is probably more balanced and kind towards the Koreans than what I've been hearing in person.
Why? If Hwang weren't Korean but, say, Swedish or Thai, would the expat communities in either of those countries be rolling their eyes and clucking "serves them right, those Thais" or "those Swedes" to the degree that foreigners in Korea (and not just English teachers on Dave's) seem to be doing? Something tells me no, and that's despite never having lived in either Sweden or Thailand.
As I said, your question is a good one, but I think it might well be asked of the Koreans themselves, too... or maybe first. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| indytrucks wrote: |
I have a question.
Why are so many of you deriving such great pleasure in seeing this man exposed as a fraud? |
I don't know if it's pleasure, however I would say that the response is perfectly natural. People don't like to think that they are being defrauded, in any way, and especially over something so critical as this. Knowing you've been defrauded creates a sense of insecurity, and makes one wonder how many other scams are out there that have not been uncovered. This is something the average person is very powerless to control, yet it affects us. When a fraud is caught, it's absolutely normal to be angry and want to see him punished. What would be much more worrying is if people were blase about stuff like this. An angry response would be justified in any case of this nature and magnitude. It is exacerbated here the nationalistic hubris that pre-bust Hwang was bringing out in a section of the Korean population. To extrapolate from the work of a few scientists that "The world will bow before Korea" and that "Koreans are more dexterous" is the kind of claptrap that stems from an odd combination of pride and insecurity, and it's not at all attractive. That's the reason, as far as I can see, and it strikes me as imminently reasonable.
What's your reason for having a problem with this? |
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Len8
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
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They will forget about him after a while, and he will probably find a position somewhere else like maybe Woosong University. He might get invited to teach biology or physiology in English.
Doesn't seem like the suicidal type, just somebody with a lotta balls. Balls enough to try it again sometime. |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| indytrucks wrote: |
I have a question.
Why are so many of you deriving such great pleasure in seeing this man exposed as a fraud? |
to be honest i am feeling a lot of pleasure over this. Why? I'm not really against his research, but I never liked the free ride he was getting. He had no laws to follow for the longest time. THe korean media never questioned what he was doing, until MBC did. Korean people were happy with what he was doing just because he was putting Korea on the world stage. Most Koreans never gave a thought to the ethical considerations.
Then there was there reaction to the MBC program. Talk about killing the messenger. Now it looks like he is a complete fake. We will know for certain in a week or so. This is blowing up in Korea's face and I am enjoying it. I hope this happens to every endevour they embark upon. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
indytrucks wrote:
I have a question.
Why are so many of you deriving such great pleasure in seeing this man exposed as a fraud?
I don't know if it's pleasure, however I would say that the response is perfectly natural. People don't like to think that they are being defrauded, in any way, and especially over something so critical as this. Knowing you've been defrauded creates a sense of insecurity, and makes one wonder how many other scams are out there that have not been uncovered. This is something the average person is very powerless to control, yet it affects us. When a fraud is caught, it's absolutely normal to be angry and want to see him punished. What would be much more worrying is if people were blase about stuff like this. An angry response would be justified in any case of this nature and magnitude. It is exacerbated here the nationalistic hubris that pre-bust Hwang was bringing out in a section of the Korean population. To extrapolate from the work of a few scientists that "The world will bow before Korea" and that "Koreans are more dexterous" is the kind of claptrap that stems from an odd combination of pride and insecurity, and it's not at all attractive. That's the reason, as far as I can see, and it strikes me as imminently reasonable.
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Okay, I have to ask here. How many of you, when something like this happens, think to yourselves "my God, I've been defrauded!!" I can honestly say I don't at all take it on such a personal level, and I'd be surprised to hear that many other people do.
Hitler diaries? Big "discovery", turned out to be a hoax, interesting news story for a few months. I certainly didn't feel slighted in the least by the fraud.
Cold fusion? Same deal. Dr Hwang, more of the same.
I could see feeling "defrauded" if a) you had invested money in Dr. Hwang's schemes, or b) if you were someone who had was suffering from a disease that his research was supposed to cure, or c) you were a Korean who had bought into the nationalist hoopla surrounding the guy. Other than that, I really don't understand how anyone can feel so strongly connected to Hwang that they feel personally cheated by his dishonesty. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| I guess it depends on how much you see yourself involved in the world at large. I don't have any relative that would benefit from his research, but I don't think that is the issue. We the public are forced to trust the scientific community because we are not able to test what they are doing and saying for ourselves. But what they do does have serious consequences for us, both good and bad. What if it was a scandal with, say, Monsanto, and we found that they were putting out drugs that were not entirely safe so they could cut costs. Would you be mad then? I would, even if I was not actually taking those drugs. If we give the scientific community the ability to lie to us, we are giving up serious amounts of control over our destiny, and we have precious little of that as it is. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Okay, I have to ask here. How many of you, when something like this happens, think to yourselves "my God, I've been defrauded!!" I can honestly say I don't at all take it on such a personal level, and I'd be surprised to hear that many other people do. |
No, I don't feel defrauded. I'm understanding Satori's position better having read his follow-up post, but for all the points he makes I can't summon up much personal umbrage over the Hwang debacle. Just isn't there.
| Quote: |
| I could see feeling "defrauded" if a) you had invested money in Dr. Hwang's schemes, or b) if you were someone who had was suffering from a disease that his research was supposed to cure, or c) you were a Korean who had bought into the nationalist hoopla surrounding the guy. |
Of the Koreans I know well and have discussed the Hwang case with, a few are definitely in category (c) and feel angry and betrayed, as you'd expect. But most are "none of the above" and don't feel defrauded by Hwang's antics. What they feel is embarrassed for the country and displeased about any damage this might do to Korea's credibility & interests.
Some are Christians and long opposed to or just uncomfortable with this whole area of scientific research. Interestingly, these Koreans didn't really mind a fellow countryman being absolutely lionised as a national (cult) hero the way Hwang was -- they just didn't want Hwang to be that hero.
And finally, a couple Korean friends just plain don't like Hwang and never have. It's nothing to do with religious or ethical problems, and certainly wasn't prompted by Hwang's exposure as a fraud. They've had a hate-on for the man from the very start and these days are crowing like the biggest "whiners" on Dave's. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| I guess it depends on how much you see yourself involved in the world at large. |
I'm not really buying this explanation. I mean, maybe it's true for you, but not for most people. Most people are a lot more petty. Hwang represents every loudmouthed Korean we've ever met, crowing about how Korea has 4 seasons and Korean history is 5,000,000 years old and Koreans are the best at Starcraft. Plus, he now represents every unscrupulous Hagwon owner, landlord, and fishpaste street stall vendor who ever cheated, swindled, or lied to us. And to see him go down is sweet. To imagine all the netizens collectively hanging their pimply, bespectacled heads in shame is sweet.
It's a petty sort of emotion, but that's what it is. I'm also angry about how he's hurt stem cell research, but that's more of an intellectual sort of anger. The gut feeling that forces me to giggle with glee when I read articles about his demise, that's pure pettiness. |
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indytrucks
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
I'm not really buying this explanation. I mean, maybe it's true for you, but not for most people. Most people are a lot more petty. Hwang represents every loudmouthed Korean we've ever met, crowing about how Korea has 4 seasons and Korean history is 5,000,000 years old and Koreans are the best at Starcraft. Plus, he now represents every unscrupulous Hagwon owner, landlord, and fishpaste street stall vendor who ever cheated, swindled, or lied to us. And to see him go down is sweet. To imagine all the netizens collectively hanging their pimply, bespectacled heads in shame is sweet.
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This is brilliant stuff. I think this answers my original question. Thanks to Guru for trying to answer my question rationally, but I don't think it applies in this case. The haughty axe-grinding about being betrayed and defruaded and 'how dare he!' is just a load of bollox. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| indytrucks wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
I'm not really buying this explanation. I mean, maybe it's true for you, but not for most people. Most people are a lot more petty. Hwang represents every loudmouthed Korean we've ever met, crowing about how Korea has 4 seasons and Korean history is 5,000,000 years old and Koreans are the best at Starcraft. Plus, he now represents every unscrupulous Hagwon owner, landlord, and fishpaste street stall vendor who ever cheated, swindled, or lied to us. And to see him go down is sweet. To imagine all the netizens collectively hanging their pimply, bespectacled heads in shame is sweet.
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This is brilliant stuff. I think this answers my original question. Thanks to Guru for trying to answer my question rationally, but I don't think it applies in this case. The haughty axe-grinding about being betrayed and defruaded and 'how dare he!' is just a load of bollox. |
Actually Indy, it is quite serious to a lot of people. They were defrauded. I'm talking about the Hwang fan club who re-enacted a kind of Beatle-mania just after he announced his breakthrough and was riding high. They would camp outside his lab and sing "we love Dr. Hwang!!" and, "you can have my eggs Dr. Hwang!".Before he admitted the fakery.
Many of those people were loving Hwang because they had relatives and loved one who were suffering a terrible illness that his research could have helped with. That's why they are now having demo's and weeping openly ( I saw them on the Korean news) because he gave them a false hope which was shattered. If that's not playing with people lives I don't know what is.
Maybe if he was from Sweden or Thailand we wouldn't be talking about it so much but he happens to be from Korea. Where we live. So obivously we are going to talk about it. |
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riley
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: where creditors can find me
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be honest, I am filled with petty glee over this. I am a small, little man who needs to grow up and be mature. (it's on my New Year's resolution list) I'm not totally proud of it and I don't go around bugging my Korean coworkers about it, but I follow the story for petty reasons.
Though, nowadays, I am also realizing the other damage the fallout is causing. I was listening to a podcast about an injured quadraplegic ex-soldier whose parents are hoping that embryonic stem cell research could help him. I couldn't help but flinch thinking about Dr. Hwang and how that family's hopes were dashed. For those people and others like them, part of me wants Dr. Hwang to burn in hell for conning them. |
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indytrucks
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually Indy, it is quite serious to a lot of people. They were defrauded. I'm talking about the Hwang fan club who re-enacted a kind of Beatle-mania just after he announced his breakthrough and was riding high. They would camp outside his lab and sing "we love Dr. Hwang!!" and, "you can have my eggs Dr. Hwang!".Before he admitted the fakery. |
Eamo, I understand it's important to a lot of people, but my original question was directed at the gloating members of this board, not the Korean public at large. I somehow doubt there were that many posters here caught up in Hwang's cult of personality, nor do I think that many here were camped outside his lab with placards saying "Take my eggs." |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| nor do I think that many here were camped outside his lab with placards saying "Take my eggs." |
I believe I saw Jongnoguru with said placard doing just that!  |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| indytrucks wrote: |
I have a question.
Why are so many of you deriving such great pleasure in seeing this man exposed as a fraud? |
Let's try a variation of that question.
If a Western expat with a fake degree was exposed and punished here in Korea, would YOU derive such great pleasure? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bellum99 wrote: |
| I still remember him a year ago on T.V saying Koreans are better than any western scientist because of chop sticks. The chop sticks train their hands so that they are more capable and talented than the western scientists. |
Are you serious? It makes one wonder why they haven't contributed very much to science. Generally, the greatest scientists in the world have been from the West. (white and Jewish) Did Newton use chopsticks?  |
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