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What the hell was Clone Boy thinking?
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: What the hell was Clone Boy thinking? Reply with quote

This story continues to fascinate me.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1145236,00.html

This is an interesting article, especially this bit:

Quote:
But why it happened is still a mystery. By all accounts, the tales of Hwang's dedication and personal discipline are all true. Hwang was one of the first to arrive in the lab, at 5 a.m., and rarely left before midnight. He rejected the role of aloof, inaccessible scientist to become a father-like figure for his young charges. And he introduced some genuine innovations into the science of cloning--gently squeezing the nucleus out of a donor egg rather than sucking it out violently and inserting the entire adult cell, not just its nucleus, into the hollowed-out recipient egg. Hwang insisted he had no interest in profiting from his discoveries; indeed, he turned over his patent rights to the university and the government.

That being the case, it seems unlikely that Hwang set out to perpetrate fraud. But it wouldn't be surprising if he, or someone in his lab, believed strongly enough in the work to be willing to cut corners. If that's true, the precipitating event could have come last January, when some of his stem-cell samples became contaminated, possibly by a fungus circulating in poorly shielded air vents.

Hwang claims it took six months to recover from the disaster. But it also might be that Hwang's team couldn't recover quickly enough and began taking shortcuts to fill the gap. Under pressure from the government and the university, and with a deadline looming for publication in one of the world's most prestigious journals, the temptation to stretch the truth might have been irresistible. "I can only speculate that Dr. Hwang was driven by ambition. He may have thought he could manipulate the data to secure research funding and compensate for his actions with follow-up results," says Ki Jung Kim, a political scientist at Seoul's Yonsei University. In short, fudge it now, fix it later.



It starts to dig at the what I think is the most interesting question in this whole debacle: what the hell was Hwang thinking? More specifically, what manner of megalomaniacal self-deception was required for him to believe that he would get away with this? I think he was convinced his method works, couldn't get the proof for it, and thought, "F**k it. Who needs experimental verification when your hand is guided by God and years of chopstick use?"

I think people should seriously look at the postively cultish atmosphere seemed to be in his lab. Assistant researchers were donating their own embryos, people were working 15 hour days 7 days a week, everybody was lying to protect the Family, and it seems a day didn't go by when Dear Cloner wasn't pronounced to be the hope, pride, and future of Korea.

And then there is this:

Quote:
...last spring, two of Hwang's researchers let slip to a journalist working for Nature that they had donated their own eggs--which raised questions, since Hwang was their boss, about whether they had been coerced.

The women retracted their story, claiming that their poor English had caused them to misspeak.


What the?? That's one hell of a misstatement. I mean, can you imagine being these people's English teacher?

Teacher: Ok, repeat after me. Hi, how are you?
Students: Hi. We've been donating embryos.
Teacher: You've been donating embryos??
Students: Fine, thanks, and you?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably the same kind of downward spiral that makes people think they have psychic powers and can talk to the dead. They begin to believe their own PR.

Hwang had a few successes, thought he had the answer, and decided to fudge the data because he was so certain his theory was sound... the real data would just, you know, come along later. Once he had the money... (In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the wome... errr stem cells.)

This means, of course, getting a lot of people to drink your kool aid. Eventually, as we saw, they're not going to watch you strut around like the savior of Korea and party with Korean Air first class stewardesses while they fly coach and are forced to open wide and swallow your spunk. Eventually they're going to realize only their silence is keeping this guy in first class stewardesses. One phone call to PD Notebook and...

The best part is where he's claiming other jealous researchers switched normal cells for his cloned cells. But people have been point out "well, you yourself made a big deal about how you were the first one there every morning and there were plenty of eyes on those cells all the time..." It would have taken the cooperation of basically everyone BUT Hwang to make the switch. Hwang Wooyou Suk wants the cops to investigate his claim. Yeah. They'll get right on that, ass face.
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It starts to dig at the what I think is the most interesting question in this whole debacle: what the hell was Hwang thinking?




Quote:
Assistant researchers were donating their own embryos, people were working 15 hour days 7 days a week, everybody was lying to protect the Family,



When Corea person is fighting the Corea he does because heart is the Corea. He's not fighting for he- he is fight for WE. You don't this situation because not Corean. Dr Hwang love the Corea. Stem cell love the Corea.
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Dan The Chainsawman



Joined: 05 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lesson of the decade:

Don't get high on your own supply.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
people were working 15 hour days 7 days a week


This is pretty typical in the science labs I've been associated with here in Korea. Maybe 'typical' is too strong a word; maybe 'common' would be more accurate. Anyway, when an experiment is going on, tests and readings have to be taken around the clock. Experiments cannot be suspended for the weekend.

Aside from that, I agree this is a fascinating story. I know juniors cannot challenge seniors and I wonder if this story has a whopping big helping of a senior run amok with juniors being dragged along. I get the feeling that the steel chopsticks theory of superiority might offer more insight than just humor. Maybe Hwang really did believe that silliness and got carried away with hypernationalism. Many believe that Korea has to develop some field like biotechnology if it's going to ever reach $20,000 per capita income. I think Hwang had some early successes and maybe saw himself as the 'one' who was going to guarantee Korea's future success. That's a pretty heady situation to be in. It went to his head and he started to cut corners and fake results while the juniors were unable to challenge him. Seniority added to group harmony...that stuff.

There's also the bit about idealism acing out practicality. There is something weird about the whole unification thing that seems relevant to me. There seems to be a focus on the ideal without reference to the practical method of getting there. We see it in hakwons, too. The director only looks at the end result and spends no time developing a step by step program to make it real.

Anyway, I think there might be something to your cult idea.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djsmnc wrote:
Quote:
It starts to dig at the what I think is the most interesting question in this whole debacle: what the hell was Hwang thinking?




Quote:
Assistant researchers were donating their own embryos, people were working 15 hour days 7 days a week, everybody was lying to protect the Family,



When Corea person is fighting the Corea he does because heart is the Corea. He's not fighting for he- he is fight for WE. You don't this situation because not Corean. Dr Hwang love the Corea. Stem cell love the Corea.


Just last night one of my essay students was writing about how Hwang was going to lead Korea into a new utopia. I'm like "errr didn't they find out he lied?" "No no. He was cheated!"
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a link to an article that says Hwang pressured the assistants into "donating" their eggs. http[url]://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/01/03/200601030027.asp[/url]
A bit of good news for Hwang. He did manage to successfuly clone a dog. That has been confirmed.
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endo



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before the scandle, he was hailed as a national hero in South Korea. He represented the future for the country and the Korean people. Dr. Hwang even went as far to say that his sucess was partially based on his use of chop sticks, which gave him an advantage because it allowed him to get at the stem cells better or something.

This idea of chop sticks was linked by the doctor and national media to the Korean people (i.e. linking the doctors success to nationalism). In other words, Dr. Hwang was abel to achieve his success because fisrt and foremost he was a Korean. This made many foreigners over here snicker, as nationalism and the idea that Koreans are of a superior race is quite strong in Korean culture.

Therefore when the story broke that the doctor had produced fradgulent research, it was quite a dissapointment for the Korean people. Being in the large shadow of China and Japan, many Koreans feel a need to prove themselves and show that they were the best. I think the doctor himself was caught up in these nationalistic feelings and doctored his research because he felt a lot of pressure to continue his success.

In the end I really feel bad for the Koreans and i'm starting to understand the root causes of the high nationalism over here.

Basically, if the Korean people were not nationalistic (retaining their own language and culture), there wouldn't be a Korea. The pennensula would be a part of Japan or China.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulsanchris wrote:
here is a link to an article that says Hwang pressured the assistants into "donating" their eggs. http[url]://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/01/03/200601030027.asp[/url]
A bit of good news for Hwang. He did manage to successfuly clone a dog. That has been confirmed.


Was it actually confirmed officially? Last I read one lab said it thought so but there's been no official ruling.
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endo



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enough of this doctor; who is that girl in your avatar mindmetoo? She's beautiful!
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

endo wrote:
Enough of this doctor; who is that girl in your avatar mindmetoo? She's beautiful!


no way, man. a lot of hair in the face, poor resolution. classic bait and switch picture. but what is the deal with your pics, mmt? i've always liked your posts, but the daily rotation of girls seems like some form of bragging.
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Shooter McGavin



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Location: ROK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

endo wrote:
Before the scandle, he was hailed as a national hero in South Korea. He represented the future for the country and the Korean people. Dr. Hwang even went as far to say that his sucess was partially based on his use of chop sticks, which gave him an advantage because it allowed him to get at the stem cells better or something.


Then there was a big deal about how using chopsticks should be a course in school so all Koreans could be as nimble as Dr. Hwang! That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You could probably open a hagwon here teaching children how to get proper dexterity from chopstick usage and non-stop video gaming, and I bet you'd actually get enrollments. What parent wouldn't want their child to be a famous scientist (and also to brag that their kid was now in 9 hagwons, while the neighbours were only in Cool.
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babtangee



Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bragging about hooker hill bait? Who would do such a thing...?












Just kiddin' dude... but someone's bound to say something of the sort.
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BigBlackEquus



Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Lotte controls Asia with bad chocolate!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been stated before, Mindmetoo is one of Derrek's socks, and the avatar/girlfriend situation is more than a good example of his typical shennanigans.
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBlackEquus wrote:
As has been stated before, Mindmetoo is one of Derrek's socks, and the avatar/girlfriend situation is more than a good example of his typical shennanigans.


but derreck was a humorless retard and mindmetoo can be pretty funny. why would he give all his good lines to a sock?
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