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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Think about it, the worse thing that has ever happened to one of our prime ministers was a pie was thrown in his face. Could you imagine that happening in the States? We do things differently. |
Apart from the assassinations, our presidents have suffered far worse, particularly in the Americas.
In '58 on a "goodwill" tour of the region, through Peru and Venezuela, Vice-President Nixon was pelted with fruit and jeered. In Caracas, an angry, anti-U.S. mob attacked his car, where his wife was with him, if my information is correct on that point, and attemped to drag him out of the car to do whatever it was that angry mobs do when they get ahold of people.
I'm no defender of Nixon, but this was most undiplomatic behavior, particularly from a people who were clamoring for U.S. financial aid. And for all his faults and apparent mental issues, you must also account for this incident when apprehending Nixon's harsh attitude toward Chile and the rest of Latin America when he was president.
Then, jumping far ahead in time, in late 2004, while in Santiago de Chile, Chilean police clashed with a Secret Service agent who attempted to enter a building at W. Bush's side. I was in Chile at the time. The whole country was up in arms in the typical self-righteousness and moral superiority I've come to expect from any and all U.S. critics. "He didn't get in because he didn't belong there!" one Chilean executive told me afterwards.
Really? These events are planned months in advance. The Secret Service and the White House send advance parties far enough in advance of the President's arrival that these things are already settled. Yet, Chileans are still Chileans, stubborn and bureaucratic, so they started a fist fight with W. Bush's principal bodyguard, citing a rule that did not apply to W. Bush, or else, I assure you, he never would have landed there.
Only days later, while returning to Washington, Colombian authorities uncovered an assassination plot by, I believe, the FARC, to shoot W. Bush in Bogota while stopping over there.
In any case, it isn't merely our unpopular presidents who face antiAmerican nonsense all over the hemisphere and beyond. It's all of us. Sometimes I can't get into a cab in a foreign country without being lectured by the cab driver or treated to a diatribe on the U.S. Or a bar in South Korea where an angry Canadian lectures me on Vietnam while I just want to have a drink and relax.
And Canadians are increasingly vocal and self-righteous in this, at least some of them.
Is it deserved? Partly. The U.S. govt's behavior, at home and abroad, has often -- but far from always or even mostly! -- been less than honorable and certainly not exemplary. Partly, however, the antiAmericanism comes from unfair reductionism and just plain ignorance from abroad, and when I hear self-opinionated Canadians spouting this nonsense, it concerns me, it angers me. Because we're supposed to be friends and neighbors. And there're supposed to be ways to settle disagreements with your friend or neighbor without insulting him so much. Not to mention that the relationship is supposed to have more going on than pure criticism. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Think about it, the worse thing that has ever happened to one of our prime ministers was a pie was thrown in his face. Could you imagine that happening in the States? We do things differently. |
Apart from the assassinations, our presidents have suffered far worse, particularly in the Americas.
In '58 on a "goodwill" tour of the region, through Peru and Venezuela, Vice-President Nixon was pelted with fruit and jeered. In Caracas, an angry, anti-U.S. mob attacked his car, where his wife was with him, if my information is correct on that point, and attemped to drag him out of the car to do whatever it was that angry mobs do when they get ahold of people.
I'm no defender of Nixon, but this was most undiplomatic behavior, particularly from a people who were clamoring for U.S. financial aid. And for all his faults and apparent mental issues, you must also account for this incident when apprehending Nixon's harsh attitude toward Chile and the rest of Latin America when he was president.
Then, jumping far ahead in time, in late 2004, while in Santiago de Chile, Chilean police clashed with a Secret Service agent who attempted to enter a building at W. Bush's side. I was in Chile at the time. The whole country was up in arms in the typical self-righteousness and moral superiority I've come to expect from any and all U.S. critics. "He didn't get in because he didn't belong there!" one Chilean executive told me afterwards.
Really? These events are planned months in advance. The Secret Service and the White House send advance parties far enough in advance of the President's arrival that these things are already settled. Yet, Chieans are Chileans, so they started a fist fight with W. Bush's principal bodyguard.
Only days later, while returning to Washington, Colombian authorities uncovered an assassination plot by, I believe, the FARC, to shoot W. Bush in Bogota while stopping over there.
In any case, it isn't merely our unpopular presidents who face antiAmerican nonsense all over the hemisphere and beyond. It's all of us. Sometimes I can't get into a cab in a foreign country without being lectured by the cab driver or treated to a diatribe on the U.S.
Now Canadians are contributing to this.
Is it deserved? Partly. The U.S. govt's behavior, at home and abroad, has often -- but far from always or even mostly! -- been less than honorable and certainly not exemplary. Partly, however, the antiAmericanism comes from unfair reductionism and just plain ignorance from abroad, and when I hear self-opinionated Canadians spouting this nonsense, it concerns me, it angers me. We're supposed to be friends and neighbors. |
Look, you're attacking Igotthisguitar for the thought that America has it's eyes on our water, and rightly so. It's stupid conspiracy thinking. But the fact that Canada could ever do any of the bad things you just said is just as paranoid. Get a grip. Who is the paranoid one now? The worse Canada will ever do (and did) is give your president the finger. If you weren't implying that Canada could concieve a plot to assasinate your president or drag and beat him/her, then you had better reword your last post, cause that is what you are basically saying.
And to finish it off, we are our own nation and can say whatever we like. If you truly believe we are a risk, get your president to invade us like all the other damn countries who pose risks. Your implications are paranoid, childish, and insulting. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Look, you're attacking Igotthisguitar for the thought that America has it's eyes on our water, and rightly so. It's stupid conspiracy thinking. But the fact that Canada could ever do any of the bad things you just said is just as paranoid. Get a grip. Who is the paranoid one now? The worse Canada will ever do (and did) is give your president the finger. If you weren't implying that Canada could concieve a plot to assasinate your president or drag and beat him/her, then you had better reword your last post, cause that is what you are basically saying.
And to finish it off, we are our own nation and can say whatever we like. If you truly believe we are a risk, get your president to invade us like all the other damn countries who pose risks. Your implications are paranoid, childish, and insulting. |
Negative.
I said that there is a strong current of antiAmericanism in the Americas, partly based on U.S. actions, and partly based on unfair reductionism and ignorance.
I said that Canada is increasingly contributing to this, and, from what I see, mostly based on unfair reductionism and ignorance.
I do not think that Canada would treat the U.S. head of state the way the peasants have down south. But I do find it interesting that there is all kinds of talk coming out of Canada these days (boarding or firing on U.S. submarines, on this board, no less), there, and in the UN, which comes down to petty opposition.
There are reports from U.S.-based think tanks whose concern is protecting the U.S.-Canadian relationship, and I cited one such report in another thread, that Canada's increasing pettiness is one of the many factors behind the deteriorating relationship.
Paranoid, childish, insulting? At least I'm not sticking my head in the sand when it comes to my country's posture toward yours. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Or a bar in South Korea where an angry Canadian lectures me on Vietnam while I just want to have a drink and relax.
And Canadians are increasingly vocal and self-righteous in this, at least some of them.
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To me, this is probably the most interesting aspect of the phenomenon.
When I arrived back in '94 and I was a brand new newbie, fob, the hakwon janitor took me to my first hoff, taught me to say, "Mak-joo joo say yo" and 'kam-ja tway-gim', and then hustled off into the night and never came back to the hakwon. The hoff, The Bodyguard, became my drinking hole of choice. The owner, Ms Choi, was spectacular. A former model. Very friendly. (Sent my shoes out to be polished because she stepped on my toe once.) The crowd, university types, very friendly after over-coming the shyness.
Months later, when I had some Korean friends, I found out The Bodyguard was the off campus center of the anti-American students, who at the time were all hot and bothered about US pressure to open the rice market. (Lots of burning US flags painted on the streets.)
The interesting thing: in all the months that I went to the bar, never once did I have any kind of confrontation, experience anything but smiles, free beers, friendly conversation of the 'When did you come to Korea' kind and french fries (Service!).
However, there were a couple of Canadians who worked at the hakwon around the corner who started to drop by 'to talk politics': meaning they were in a bash the US mood. Why let someone else have a pleasant evening when you can spread your negativity around?
Conclusion from my experience: anti-American Koreans are classier than NotAmericans. As one poster said, you learn to become wary till you find out what you are in for. Talking to a new Canadian is like shopping at the bakery. The rolls look appetizing, but some of them are booby-trapped with that disgusting red bean paste. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Say what? What does fair market have to do with having only one seller...it is the amount of buyers that create a fair market. |
Economics major were you? One seller creates a monopoly/trust selling environment, which meant that the seller can charge whatever price they want for their good. Usually, this results in a higher sales price, but in this case it results in a lower price because the Canadian government was releasing the land at less than half the price that a fair market situation would have yielded.
"Provincial governments grant an annual allowable cut to sawmill owners at whatever low price is necessary to maintain full employment in the timber industry ... {this} is beginning to wreak havoc with the timber industry in the United States��." (Jimmy Carter letter to The New York Times 3/24/01)
| Grotto wrote: |
The subsidy that the american gov was crying about is the stumpage rebate. For every tree they replant they get a rebate. This keeps our forests in a constant state of replenishment. The crybaby americans didnt like this and even after being told it was wrong and to give back the 5 billion dollars they stole they refused...after all why should americans obey the law? 
Canada did win because it was correct...it was proven correct in a court of law. |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| So don't act like it is 100% fair and everyone except the U.S. sees it that way. If you think that, then you obviously don't know much about the entire debate, you only know what the CBC shows you. |
You know what, I've changed my mind. You're absolutely right. It's all America's fault. Everything. We're wrong about everything. And, we're crybabies, too.
I love the spin you put on that "stumpage rebate."
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| "This keeps our forests in a constant state of replenishment." |
Brilliant! Of course that rebate had nothing to do with artificially hedging languishing market conditions. It was all about keeping those forests green and beautiful...
http://www.fairlumbercoalition.org/issuebkgrnd_intro.htm |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Or a bar in South Korea where an angry Canadian lectures me on Vietnam while I just want to have a drink and relax.
And Canadians are increasingly vocal and self-righteous in this, at least some of them.
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To me, this is probably the most interesting aspect of the phenomenon.
When I arrived back in '94 and I was a brand new newbie, fob, the hakwon janitor took me to my first hoff, taught me to say, "Mak-joo joo say yo" and 'kam-ja tway-gim', and then hustled off into the night and never came back to the hakwon. The hoff, The Bodyguard, became my drinking hole of choice. The owner, Ms Choi, was spectacular. A former model. Very friendly. (Sent my shoes out to be polished because she stepped on my toe once.) The crowd, university types, very friendly after over-coming the shyness.
Months later, when I had some Korean friends, I found out The Bodyguard was the off campus center of the anti-American students, who at the time were all hot and bothered about US pressure to open the rice market. (Lots of burning US flags painted on the streets.)
The interesting thing: in all the months that I went to the bar, never once did I have any kind of confrontation, experience anything but smiles, free beers, friendly conversation of the 'When did you come to Korea' kind and french fries (Service!).
However, there were a couple of Canadians who worked at the hakwon around the corner who started to drop by 'to talk politics': meaning they were in a bash the US mood. Why let someone else have a pleasant evening when you can spread your negativity around?
Conclusion from my experience: anti-American Koreans are classier than NotAmericans. As one poster said, you learn to become wary till you find out what you are in for. Talking to a new Canadian is like shopping at the bakery. The rolls look appetizing, but some of them are booby-trapped with that disgusting red bean paste. |
You're becoming repetitive. So Canadians can be bitter assholes? What's the point of being all hot and bothered about it yourself?
Criticisms are best made well and once. If it doesn't stick, its probably not important, not justified, or the subject wasn't worth it in the first place. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Brilliant! Of course that rebate had nothing to do with artificially hedging languishing market conditions. It was all about keeping those forests green and beautiful... |
Unlike American industrialists who go in and clearcut and leave a barren landscape behind Canada has taken steps to keep our renewable resources renewed.
If you really want to take a long hard look at hedging market conditions one need look no further than the American automotive industry. Or you could take a long hard look at your congress, the corruption and illegal activities that are part of an everyday occurance in good ol Washington DC.
As for USA having its eyes on Canadas fresh water...its not a conspiracy theory its a fact. During NAFTA there was a huge outcry from Americans because Canada refused to put the selling of fresh water in bulk into the agreement. If you want our water you can pay for it by the bottle  Some American companies wanted to build pipelines into Canada to transport fresh water to places like Arizona and Nevada.
While there are some Canadians who like to bash Americans, I for one only bash your politics. I have met many Americans, and for the most part they have been good people. However I have also met my share of nutjobs from our fair cousin to the South.
I dont think you could find a country on the planet that doesnt have at least a few crackpots out there. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
Unlike American industrialists who go in and clearcut and leave a barren landscape behind Canada has taken steps to keep our renewable resources renewed.
If you really want to take a long hard look at hedging market conditions one need look no further than the American automotive industry. Or you could take a long hard look at your congress, the corruption and illegal activities that are part of an everyday occurance in good ol Washington DC. |
Exactly, but it does happen on both sides, which was my point all along.
| Grotto wrote: |
| While there are some Canadians who like to bash Americans, I for one only bash your politics. I have met many Americans, and for the most part they have been good people. However I have also met my share of nutjobs from our fair cousin to the South. |
And vice-versa.
| Grotto wrote: |
| I dont think you could find a country on the planet that doesnt have at least a few crackpots out there. |
Truer words have never been spoken. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| You're becoming repetitive. |
Get up on the wrong side of the yo today? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Conclusion from my experience: anti-American Koreans are classier than NotAmericans. As one poster said, you learn to become wary till you find out what you are in for. Talking to a new Canadian is like shopping at the bakery. The rolls look appetizing, but some of them are booby-trapped with that disgusting red bean paste. |
Not to disagree, there are moronic Canadians out there (I have met some) but since you share your Canadian meetings with us, let me share four of my American meetings.
Meeting one. American guy goes into McDonald's with his family. They try to order everything in English (and not slowed down easy English too). The girl gives them a picture sheet but he pushes it away and continues for 5 minutes to say what he wants, raising his tone through out. The mother is saying how stupid these Japanese people are, can't even speak English for their job. Finally, I say what is needed and apologize profusly.
Meeting two. In a bar, introduced to an friend of a friend. This American girl is a little drunk and is trying to get a specific drink made (ofcourse in English, heaven forbid she had been in Japan for two years and learn a bit of Japanese). She starts swearing and reaches into the bar and starts pouring it herself. Hey, we all get kicked out, crap.
Meeting three. Japanese restaurant. With an American vegan. Now, I HATE fish, but I know many things come with fish and I always take it off. Anyways, he orders fried vegetables and it comes with fish flakes on it. He starts yelling at them. Not even starting nice and asking for them to do it again. He then knocks it away. They take it away and take the fish flakes off and bring it back (they thought this was the problem as he never said he was a vegan to them, so how could they know). Then he exploded and refused to eat anything and brooded the entire meal. It was horrible, I was so embarrased again, again apologizing profusely.
Meeting four. No respect for the natives. Actually told someone to move (in English ofcourse) Treated them like crap and we got kicked out of a bar.
So, maybe you have to deal with criticism, but (while these are the worst), I am sometimes embarrased by American arrogance (I'd say about 10% of my meetings with Americans), if not thrown out of a place. The thing is my stories and worries are much worse than yours (so far all you have said is the criticize you, they didn't start a fight or get you kicked out, though they may have embarrased you) yet I don't immediately become wary of Americans just because they are American. I know these people are just idiots.
EDIT
BTW, this has never happened with a Canadian, Brit, South African, or even a large, rugby playing way overdrunk Aussie  . I have been traveling for 3 and a half years now.
Last edited by laogaiguk on Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
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I just read in the paper that a korean company got the rights for a desalination plant in the Middle East.
http://english.kbs.co.kr/news/zoom/1351234_11781.html
My dad's company,
www.aqua-pure.com
has spent many years developing waste water treatment systems for the oil industry. Though there technology has major advantages, there hasn't been enough support from environmental lobby groups for them to be installed.
For example, in the Alberta tar sands, the oil industry is basically a massive water processing plant. They drill for the oil and massive amounts of water comes up with the oil. The oil is separated from the water. The water is dumped unto the ground with a very high chlorides count. Since the awareness isn't there, then the demand for cleaning the water isn't there. Then the CANADIAN and AMERICAN companies can get away with messing up the environment.
Now, AQE-TSE, is now being implemented in Texas where they are having massive water shortages.
The market is reactionary and proactive, because it is driven by greed and not by spirituality. Fortunately, this is changing in many aspects. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Laogaiguk: you are describing classic cases of American tourists abroad and I have no problem believing it.
On the other hand, how many times have you been arrogantly judged or lectured to by an American tourist in any of these places?
Because, I'd have to say, there is at least as good a chance that I will be arrogantly judged or lectured to by any Canadian I meet abroad as you will witness what you have accurately described above.
So if you are establishing that Canadians are no better or no worse than Americans -- which has been my point from day one on threads like this one -- I wholly agree with you.
Now, I've got a story for you:
Once went downtown with a Canadian man who wanted to take his CD player back to the Korean who had serviced it. It still wasn't working. I understood it was a simple thing.
No sooner had we entered the establishment than he took me, and the poor Korean guy, totally by surprise.
He threw the CD player at him and just started yelling "money! money!" in English.
I asked "what are you doing?" and he didn't respond, so focused was he on intimidating this guy.
To his everlasting credit, the Korean guy opened the CD player, changed the batteries and returned it to the Canadian guy, who smiled and walked out, hopefully feeling like the ass he was, but I'll never know, because he said nothing to me.
And this has never happened to me with an American, Brit, or Aussie. I travelled for about five years before coming back to the States. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Laogaiguk: you are describing classic cases of American tourists abroad and I have no problem believing it.
On the other hand, how many times have you been arrogantly judged or lectured to by an American tourist in any of these places?
Because, I'd have to say, there is at least as good a chance that I will be arrogantly judged or lectured to by any Canadian I meet abroad as you will witness what you have accurately described above.
So if you are establishing that Canadians are no better or no worse than Americans -- which has been my point from day one on threads like this one -- I wholly agree with you.
Now, I've got a story for you:
Once went downtown with a Canadian man who wanted to take his CD player back to the Korean who had serviced it. It still wasn't working. I understood it was a simple thing.
No sooner had we entered the establishment than he took me, and the poor Korean guy, totally by surprise.
He threw the CD player at him and just started yelling "money! money!" in English.
I asked "what are you doing?" and he didn't respond, so focused was he on intimidating this guy.
To his everlasting credit, the Korean guy opened the CD player, changed the batteries and returned it to the Canadian guy, who smiled and walked out, hopefully feeling like the ass he was, but I'll never know, because he said nothing to me.
And this has never happened to me with an American, Brit, or Aussie. I travelled for about five years before coming back to the States. |
That guys was an A$$, no doubt about it, and by his actions, I doubt he felt embarrased. And I agree, stupid Canadians and stupid Americans. My point was that I had been kicked out of places because of an American (no, that isn't my point). My point is that even with that (which is much worse, cause it really affected me, ie getting kicked out) I don't judge Americans the first time I hear where they are from like Ya-ta Boy was saying he immediately becomes wary of Canadians. Also for Ya-ta boy, I am not saying for you to stop that, just incase it seems like that, as that would be beyond arrogance to tell someone how to feel. I am just saying I don't understand as it doesn't happen to me.
By the way, only one of my stories was a tourist though, the others were expats, just for the record. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Laogaiguk: you write well and you stand your ground. I can begin to understand that this issue might be caused by chauvenist Canadians and the famous "ugly Americans" and not so much by actual or objective differences. There is always more to the story than what I think I know about it, this case is probably no different.
I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to be an American and be surprised by an arrogant Canadian lecture based on obvious pretentions to moral superiority. That's where my frustrations (and I think others here, too) with this begin. It happens often enough that it seems like a national trait. Maybe we're not seeing the whole picture, like you suggest. But a lot of what we see is indeed this. Then there are just outright absurdities like this "the U.S. wants our water!" claim that exacerbate the issues.
In any case, I'm glad to have exchanged views with you on this. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Laogaiguk: you write well and you stand your ground. I can begin to understand that this issue might be caused by chauvenist Canadians and the famous "ugly Americans" and not so much by actual or objective differences. There is always more to the story than what I think I know about it, this case is probably no different.
I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to be an American and be surprised by an arrogant Canadian lecture based on obvious pretentions to moral superiority. That's where my frustrations (and I think others here, too) with this begin. It happens often enough that it seems like a national trait. Maybe we're not seeing the whole picture, like you suggest. But a lot of what we see is indeed this. Then there are just outright absurdities like this "the U.S. wants our water!" claim that exacerbate the issues.
In any case, I'm glad to have exchanged views with you on this. |
That is the problem I think with some Canadians. They don't actually exchange (though I am sure some Americans are guilty of this too). The thing is I can understand your points, but I am just saying don't group us all together. You'd be surprised, not all Aussies like drinking (as opposed to the picture I have definitely seen through all my Aussie friends ). |
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