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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I remember reading somewhere that the US ambassador didn't know that the Kwangju massacre was happening. This happened in the early 1980s in a dictatorship. News didn't travel fast back in those times. |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| According to Don Oberdorfer in The Two Koreas, the Korean government did not need the US military's permission to mobilize the two units which were sent to Kwangju. |
Well, if this is the case then this doesn't make sense:
"[that] Chun [pressed the US] to give their assent," (which they did give).
Why would Chun press the US in the first place if he were free to do what he wanted to do?
The fact that Chun sought the US's permission before he acted reveals the real nature of the relationship between the Korean government and the US. An independent government would have no need to do any such thing.
"Under treaty obligations they had only to notify US commanders of the mobilization....."
Implicit in the 'notification' is the need for approval by the US; do you think the US would have allowed the Korean government to do anything they liked if it were against their interests (even if they had received prior notification of it)? With the US's investment in troops in South Korea? And after having fought a war there once? The US already got rid of one South Korean government they didn't like - they wouldn't have hesitated to get rid of another that they disapproved of. And they didn't have to with Chun Doo-hwan's government because he did exactly what they wanted.
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| American diplomats, pressed by Chun to give their assent, did so thinking that their private statement would ensure that restraint would be used and special forces troops would not be sent. |
Well, I suppose they would say so after the fact - nobody wants to admit they were party to a massacre when in fact they were. I guess it's not only Asians who don't like to lose face. Same as for the Taejon Massacre but this time they also made sure it was blamed all on another party, North Korea.
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| Many, if not most, of the original insinuations of US complicity were created by Chun Doo-hwan's propagandists to deflect criticism away from his regime. |
Well, I hardly think "Chun Doohwan's propagandists" are in a position to make up laws like this one:
http://www.koreatruth.org/history.html
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..."
even if they were out to get him.
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| What evidence? All you have shown us is a couple of newspaper articles alleging these "documents" |
The fact that "the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..." is evidence enough of US complicity in the Gwangju massacre. (And the fact that Reagan warmly met with Chun Doo-hwan after it happened. This is not an action of a government angry that a massacre occurred in territory it occupies.) |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say that my hat is off to you, patchy, for you are a master at misreading simple sentences and then making wild overgeneralizations. Few, perhaps even none, of the people I have met in my life's journey have shown such skill and dedication to this difficult art.
Chun asked the US ambassadors for 'approval' not in the sense of "Please, pretty please may I do this?" but more like "Tell me that you think this is a good idea". Note that the dictionary contains more than one definition of "approval". |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| back to the subject at hand: North Korea is now declining food aid from the UN. "experts" think it is to revert to the extreme isolation it was in during the 90s. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| patchy wrote: |
[Well, I hardly think "Chun Doohwan's propagandists" are in a position to make up laws like this one:
http://www.koreatruth.org/history.html
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..."
even if they were out to get him.
| Quote: |
| What evidence? All you have shown us is a couple of newspaper articles alleging these "documents" |
The fact that "the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..." is evidence enough of US complicity in the Gwangju massacre. (And the fact that Reagan warmly met with Chun Doo-hwan after it happened. This is not an action of a government angry that a massacre occurred in territory it occupies.) |
Since when has Gwangju been anywhere near the Demilitarized Zone?
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S military command, which must approve all troop movements ALONG THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE..." The key words here are capitalized. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| So basically there is no evidence. It seems just wishful thinking that they could blame this on the US. |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| patchy wrote: |
[Well, I hardly think "Chun Doohwan's propagandists" are in a position to make up laws like this one:
http://www.koreatruth.org/history.html
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..."
even if they were out to get him.
| Quote: |
| What evidence? All you have shown us is a couple of newspaper articles alleging these "documents" |
The fact that "the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..." is evidence enough of US complicity in the Gwangju massacre. (And the fact that Reagan warmly met with Chun Doo-hwan after it happened. This is not an action of a government angry that a massacre occurred in territory it occupies.) |
Since when has Gwangju been anywhere near the Demilitarized Zone?
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S military command, which must approve all troop movements ALONG THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE..." The key words here are capitalized. |
The troops had to be mobilized from the demilitarized zone to Gwangju where the demonstrations that Chun wanted to put down were.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/korea_park.htm
"The United States' role was controversial. General John A. Wickham, Jr., had released South Korean troops from the South Korea-United States Combined Forces Command to end the rebellion; President Reagan had strongly endorsed Chun's actions.
In May 1980 the 963rd Airborne Air Control Squadron was tasked to return to Asia. Twenty four hours after the deployment order issued, the first crew was on the ground in Okinawa. The Squadron flew missions over Korea for nearly 30 days. While at Kadena the crews assisted the 961st Airborne Warning and Control Squadron in becoming operational two months ahead of schedule. A carrier moved to the area in late May and a carrier presence was maintained through 28 June 1980."
? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yo know, I think I actually read about that in Ronald Reagan's memoirs...
"I woke up that morning, and the only thing I could think of was how much I really wanted to assist in the violent execution of a few hundred student protesters in a podunk farming city in a country on the other side of the planet. I called the president of that country and said, "I think it would be a good idea for you to go down there and fill them all full of lead."
Actually, I didn't read that because it's horse��. This is what patchy wants you to believe happened. |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
Yo know, I think I actually read about that in Ronald Reagan's memoirs...
"I woke up that morning, and the only thing I could think of was how much I really wanted to assist in the violent execution of a few hundred student protesters in a podunk farming city in a country on the other side of the planet. I called the president of that country and said, "I think it would be a good idea for you to go down there and fill them all full of lead."
Actually, I didn't read that because it's horse��. This is what patchy wants you to believe happened. |
You should change the words ' wanted to assist in' to 'approved of', for accuracy's sake, Pligganease. Carter was the president in charge at the time of the massacre, not Reagan. Reagan was just the president who greeted the stalwart Korean champion of democracy, Chun, in a White House ceremony.
And no, you wouldn't read that in his memoirs, Pligganease, nor other things of historical interest in his presidency for that matter because those memoirs don't exist: Reagan had trouble with his memory. And the 'memory problems' seemed to start .... ? Oh, that's right, just straight after the Iran-Contra scandal broke out. Heh. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| patchy wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| patchy wrote: |
[Well, I hardly think "Chun Doohwan's propagandists" are in a position to make up laws like this one:
http://www.koreatruth.org/history.html
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..."
even if they were out to get him.
| Quote: |
| What evidence? All you have shown us is a couple of newspaper articles alleging these "documents" |
The fact that "the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S. military command, which must approve all troop movements along the Demilitarized Zone ..." is evidence enough of US complicity in the Gwangju massacre. (And the fact that Reagan warmly met with Chun Doo-hwan after it happened. This is not an action of a government angry that a massacre occurred in territory it occupies.) |
Since when has Gwangju been anywhere near the Demilitarized Zone?
"the South Korean military is under the operational control of the U.S military command, which must approve all troop movements ALONG THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE..." The key words here are capitalized. |
The troops had to be mobilized from the demilitarized zone to Gwangju where the demonstrations that Chun wanted to put down were.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/korea_park.htm
"The United States' role was controversial. General John A. Wickham, Jr., had released South Korean troops from the South Korea-United States Combined Forces Command to end the rebellion; President Reagan had strongly endorsed Chun's actions.
In May 1980 the 963rd Airborne Air Control Squadron was tasked to return to Asia. Twenty four hours after the deployment order issued, the first crew was on the ground in Okinawa. The Squadron flew missions over Korea for nearly 30 days. While at Kadena the crews assisted the 961st Airborne Warning and Control Squadron in becoming operational two months ahead of schedule. A carrier moved to the area in late May and a carrier presence was maintained through 28 June 1980."
? |
Troop movements ALONG the demilitarized zone. In other words they only needed U.S permission to move troops from the DMZ to another part of the DMZ. Not to an area outside of the DMZ. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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I've been wnting to jump in this thread for a long time, but it was already 5 pages long before i kew about it and haven't had the time to sit and read the whole thing to see if tehre was anything salient to say. So, tonight I jump to the last page and see a revisiting of the Kwangju Massacre issue... which has been done and done... ... so don't see any use in reading the rest.
I'm sure it's been said, but in the interest of bringing this thread back to its original topic: If the USSR and the Eastern Block are a legitimate example, then yes, more will be achieved by flooding NK with info and capitalism than by hard line diplomacy and various sorts of economic sanctions. |
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