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[Troll_Bait]

Thanks for the links.

http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm

It says: ""It is known that Quirinius was made governor of Syria by Augustus in AD 6."

That's what I said.

It does add: "Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay discovered several inscriptions that indicated

that Quirinius was governor of Syria on two occasions, the first time several years prior to this date..."

Unfortunately, it doesn't give an exact date, so there's nothing that would show that his reign did, in fact, overlap with that of Herod the Great, who died in the year 4 BCE (BC).

Also, this site hurts its credibility greatly when it says:

"The Bible is a book of History" and "Remember, no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted the Bible."

Why?

"The lead article in the March 2002 issue of the prestigious Harper's magazine, titled "False Testament," bluntly stated that archaeology now refutes the Bible's claim to history."

Also, the Biblical Archaeological Review (BAR) ran a story in their May/June 2002 issue called "Is the Bible Historical Hooey?"

(The Pagan Christ : Recovering the Lost Light, by Tom Harpur [page 115])

Here is an example:

Many people know the story of how "the walls of Jericho came tumbling down."

That this could not have happened "has since been proved by archaeology, which has revealed, among many other things, that the Canaanite cities were not walled, as related in the Bible."

(Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, by Acharya S, W.Sumner Davis (Foreword)[page 476])

Your second link ...

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/p_greetham/wisemen/chron1.html

... begins with a credible first paragraph, which states that "In 12 BC he (Publius Sulpicius Quirinius) became consul in Rome and shortly afterwards was given the task of bringing to order the rebelling Homanadensians of Asia. In 3 BC he became proconsul of Asia."

So, it's possible to push his reign in Asia (Syria) back as far as the year 3 BCE (BC).

However, that's still a year after the death of Herod the Great.

What follows this promising start is disappointing.

Here is my summary (readers can click on the link and read it for themselves).

blah blah appears to have blah blah or that our version is in error. An error could have blah blah if blah blah The second possibility is blah blah may have blah blah if blah blah Another way of resolving the problem is blah blah He might be suggesting blah blah might have been blah blah He might then have blah blah which could have been blah blah It has also been suggested that blah blah could have blah blah he could have blah blah It is suggested that blah blah If we assume that we have an error here blah blah If we assume blah blah then it could be blah blah.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic, I know, and I also appreciate the importance of using phrases like "could have been" when trying to do scholarly writing.

However, in a mere five paragraphs, there are so many mentions of "if," "could," and errors that I felt sorry for the author as he desperately tried to fit a square peg into a round hole.

If fact, he even includes a fact that he admits doesn't do much to strengthen his case:

"Dio Cassius, a Roman writer mentions there were taxes levied during this decade. This involved going back to one's home town to work out what had been left you as an inheritance, and then taxes were demanded based on its value . However, Dio Cassius does not help us with the dates of these taxes."

Next ...

You, Mr. Rapier, said, "6 B.C., when Quirinius was a special legatos Aogusti to Syria" and then provided this link:

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc09/htm/iv.vi.xii.htm

However, I couldn't find your quote there.

What I did find was this:

"From 6-9 A.D. he (Quirinius,Quirinus) was legatus Augusti, i.e., governor, in Syria."

That's what I said, putting his reign ten years after the death of Herod the Great.



I'll look into your other links later.

If I find something that seems to be credible, then I'll shake your hand and commend you on a fine fencing duel.

[Troll_Bait]

This link was not very good ...

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

... because it basically consists of a fictional dialogue between two fictional people, one of whom is a "straw man" set up to be knocked down.

It's not very scholarly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Troll_Bait]

I wasn't too impressed by this link either.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Menj/quirinius.htm

It basically reprints a chapter from The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus, by Lee Strobel.

Strobel is a journalist, and the book is written more like a novel than a text book of any kind.

(Would you use The DaVinci Code as a source for serious debate?)

Also, that book was given a thorough rebuttal in this book:

Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ", by Earl Doherty

[rapier]

Your case is based on one piece of evidence: Josephus' writing that quirinius was appointed governor in 6AD. How do you know this is credible? not a mistake? Why is the whole burden of proof not on your single piece of evidence, yet aimed at my various pieces of evidence? Its clear that while he may not have been Governor at the time of Jesus' birth as generally agreed by scholars, he was in judah beforehand.

I have supplied evidence to show he was
a) Not specifically described as "Governor" by Luke- the wording is ambiguous
2) was present in the area in charge of the Palestine census prior to this..and in varying capacity and reponsibility..
3) There were several censuses conducted in the area

You also ignore the possibilities (unproven, yes..but) that he was recalled from duties in nearby lands to help conduct the census -as that was his sphere of experience and excellence.
As you can see..roman censusses in many lands were often delayed for years and even decades due to popular resistance..and by all accounts Herod was desperately poor at carrying out Roman orders, keeping records, let alone keeping control of his back yard.

Overall..its very hard to imagine Luke fabricating a date where on all other matters he makes for a credible writer.

[Troll_Bait]

[Troll_Bait]

[n3ptne]

Forget about the citations... any citation (including the supposed "trade manifestos" of Joseph of Arimathea's vessels (Christ's supposed uncle) which list Christ as a passenger, circa "the occult") is speculative at best, and cannot hold up to any sort of historical integrity.

However, look at the facts... Jesus Christ, excluding his possible divinity, is the most written about figure in all of human history. There are literally thousands of various accounts, some of which are completely contradictory...

Yet my point is this, and I'll say it as a non-Christian... they do exist, and they were written by intelligent men. And as an intelligent man I find it impossible to speculate that these accounts all stem from an apparition.

We may never know the true nature of Christ, or whether he truly was the son of God... but I think that we can all accept the fact that at the very least such a mortal man (or, perhaps men, if you were so inclined to intellectually demand to the lowest possible possiblity) did exist.

To suggest otherwise is ignorant. Less is known about other historical figures whose actual existences are not called into question. The only reason for doing so with Christ is to deface Christian, Jewish, and Islamic tradition (as all three, in one capacity or another, do acknowledge his existence).

[Troll_Bait]

[some waygug-in]

If you want to know whether or not Jesus is real, there is only one way I know of.........

Get down on your knees and ask God what he thinks about it.

Be sincere, believing that you will get an answer.

Keep asking until you do.

Read your Bible and pray.

peace.

[Troll_Bait]

Wow, I've really learned my lesson.

And what lesson is that?

That you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

On the off-chance that anyone is actually interested in "drinking" some knowledge, please look at my posts, references, and links.

Peace.

[Satori]

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[igotthisguitar]

[Tiny_Tibbo]

[Satori]