|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and if that STILL isn't good enough for you, enjoy:
Wikpedia puts the smackdown on Grotto big time
Quote:
It was during the late 80's until 2003 the worlds 4th biggest, only beaten by USA, Soviet Union and China.
How does that burn feel Grotto?
Tip: don't talk trash that you can't back up. |
Excuse me Mr retard.....but could you please show me just where it compares numbers to India? Pakistan? Apparently ol widipedia isnt all that accurate. India has always had a huge army as well as Pakistan.
The stats I got were from Wikipedia as well.  I guess it doesnt pay to quote a subpar source from the internet 
| Quote: |
| The army grew to roughly a million, excluding the paramilitary organisations of the party militia (the Popular Army) or the 150,000 of the Kurdish tribal mercenary units, the Battalions of National Defence. |
Again your stupidity rises to the top. I did say if you excluded, pressganged civilians and militia....by your logic I could say that China has an army of more than 342 million soldiers....or it could  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and if that STILL isn't good enough for you, enjoy:
Wikpedia puts the smackdown on Grotto big time
Quote:
It was during the late 80's until 2003 the worlds 4th biggest, only beaten by USA, Soviet Union and China.
How does that burn feel Grotto?
Tip: don't talk trash that you can't back up. |
Excuse me Mr retard.....but could you please show me just where it compares numbers to India? Pakistan? Apparently ol widipedia isnt all that accurate. India has always had a huge army as well as Pakistan.
The stats I got were from Wikipedia as well. I guess it doesnt pay to quote a subpar source from the internet |
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/army.htm
| Quote: |
| During the late 1970s and the mid-1980s, the Iraqi armed forces underwent many changes in size, structure, arms supplies, hierarchy, deployment, and political character. Between 1980 and the summer of 1990 Saddam boosted the number of troops in the Iraqi military from 180,000 to 900,000, creating the fourth-largest army in the world. With mobilization, Iraq could have raised this to 2 million men under arms--fully 75% of all Iraqi men between ages 18 and 34. The number of tanks in the Iraqi military rose from 2,700 to 5,700 and artillery pieces went from 2,300 to 3,700. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grotto wrote: |
Newsflash guys...just because one american dumbass says something doesnt make it a fact. All of your links and posts are to quotes by dumbass americans.
Lets break this down so even you morons can understand
China 2,250,000 active troops(ranked first)
Indian The Indian Army is a well-trained and well-equipped military service, with a troop strength of over a million
Russia 960,600 (Ranked 5th)
Pakistan active force of 550,000
America 485,500
So with Russia ranked 5'th in the world you are trying to tell me that Iraq has/had more troops than Russia?
Remember we are talking about armies here, not militia, fanatic suicide squads or pressganged civilians!
Please do a little more research than just posting up some moronic american generals stupidity  |
Thank you Mith. Grotto, where is your source there huh? Russia is ranked 5th?? And let me guess, that is PRESENT stats, not stats from 1990.
Give it up man. Evidence here is staring you right in the face- deal with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
Newsflash guys...just because one american dumbass says something doesnt make it a fact. All of your links and posts are to quotes by dumbass americans.
Lets break this down so even you morons can understand
China 2,250,000 active troops(ranked first)
Indian The Indian Army is a well-trained and well-equipped military service, with a troop strength of over a million
Russia 960,600 (Ranked 5th)
Pakistan active force of 550,000
America 485,500
So with Russia ranked 5'th in the world you are trying to tell me that Iraq has/had more troops than Russia?
Remember we are talking about armies here, not militia, fanatic suicide squads or pressganged civilians!
Please do a little more research than just posting up some moronic american generals stupidity |
Thank you Mith. Grotto, where is your source there huh? Russia is ranked 5th?? And let me guess, that is PRESENT stats, not stats from 1990.
Give it up man. Evidence here is staring you right in the face- deal with it. |
4 out of 4 Americans agree; Grotto is slow.
Anyway, arguing vehemently over well-established facts is a sign that someone made it past high-school mentality. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| Anyway, arguing vehemently over well-established facts is a sign that someone made it past high-school mentality. |
There is nobility in challenging well-established facts and, especially, questioning "authoritative" claims and analysis. And I can respect that.
This is not to be confused with simple obstinacy, however.
No matter which way you cut it, the Iraqi Army in 1990-1991 was the fourth largest army on the planet, according to most, if not all, experts. Even Aljazeera accepts this estimate. Still, this is not a scientific fact but rather a rough comparison. Grotto seems to be asking for sufficient evidence of somethin akin to DNA samples to get an unequivocal conviction in a court of law that shows the U.S. was not lying. He is also apparently simply making up his own rankings according to what seems logical to him off the top of his head. This is all very unrealistic and foolish.
As you know, military estimates have been historically controversial and are prone to alternative interpretation and reinterpretation. Consider the infighting between the Pentagon and Langley over the size of the Vietcong during the Vietnam War, for example. I think this also occurred in El Salvador when we were attempting to quantify the insurgency there as well.
If anyone has the time, resources, and the ability to get onto the site, though, they should go to Jane's, whereever it is on the web, and get the Iraqi data from 1990-1991. Alternatively, the Rand Corporation is also a good source on these issues.
I will not because it occurs to me that Grotto will not change his views on the U.S. whether we prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Iraqi Army was the fourth largest in the world. So this is even more pointless than debating the effectiveness of the hypothetical heroic Canadian guerrilla force...he and his coreligionists will continue to insist that the U.S. is a bully force that only attacks weak and defenseless "enemies." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sooke
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
In all fairness, I remember at the time of the gulf war, all the news reports were saying that Iraq at the time had the world's 4th largest army (including the BBC, CBC and other non-American sources).
As my father was preparing to deploy to the Gulf (Qatar) we had a little chat about it, and I mentioned the 4th largest army tidbit. He said something along the lines of "Well, they're the 4th largest, but the not the 4th highest motivated army." I think a lot of the talk was that the Iraqi Army was a paper tiger, and from what I understand, most of the troops knew it. The US made short work of them, thanks to a huge bombing campaign for a month before the war, and then engaging the remnaints of the Iraqi Army in the open desert with overwhelming force and total air-dominance. (Wasn't this known as the Powell Doctrine?-if they had done it this time in Iraq, there would undoubtedly be less problems now.)
Anyway, Iraq had a sizable army, but most western armies know that motivated highly-trained volunteers usually perform better than a much higher number of poorly-trained unmotivated conscripts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riley
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: where creditors can find me
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| True, to paraphrase Sooke, it's quality over quantity no matter what Stalin said.(or whoever it was) Still though, there were pundits in 1990 saying that the U.S. was looking at a long hard slog. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Anyway, Iraq had a sizable army, but most western armies know that motivated highly-trained volunteers usually perform better than a much higher number of poorly-trained unmotivated conscripts. |
Exactly my point.....if you counted the amount of actual trained soldiers in the Iraqi army you would come out with much smaller numbers.
The amount of students, farmers, businessmen, workers etc pressganged into the military, handed a rifle and were told they were now soldiers who should be proud to give their lives for Saddam do not count in my estimates.
Just as if I was counting the standing army of the USA I would not count reservists in that number as they are not full time soldiers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| grotto, no one was arguing that the iraqi army was NOT a paper tiger. You specifically disagreed with the idea that Iraq was the 4th largest army at the time. Now you have altered your argument. Conceeding you are wrong is that difficult huh? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Totally!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
4 out of 4 Americans agree; Grotto is slow.
|
Not just Americans, either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting references to the description "paper tiger," above.
How about going back to its 1990-1991 context, though, when the harmless "little boy" first spoke it?
| Quote: |
...Hussein did try his nice-guy approach, announcing on December 6 that he was releasing all foreign hostages - including Americans. This was not about to alter Bush's longstanding determination to drive Hussein out of Kuwait. The hostages poured out of Kuwait, and Bush continued to urge Iraq to pull out of Kuwait and to agree to talks.
Instead, from Iraq came a statement that it was "ready for the decisive showdown." The January 15 deadline was approaching, and Iraqis were holding evacuation drills and stockpiling oil supplies. On December 22, Iraq announced that it would never give up Kuwait. On December 30, Iraq's information minister said that Bush "must have been drunk" when he suggested Iraq might withdraw from Kuwait, and added: "We will show the world America is a paper tiger." And the next day Iraq began drafting 17-year-olds. |
excerpted from...
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch36.htm
Also see...
| Quote: |
| ...an Arab takeover of the Gulf by the removal of the United States forces (stationed there in the course of the Iran-Iraq war). He made a verbal onslaught upon the United States -- a paper tiger that had withdrawn from Vietnam, and had pulled out of Lebanon when a few Marines were killed there. He threatened to burn half of Israel (April 1990) and he ordered the execution of the British journalist Farzad Bazoft, despite international appeals for clemency. Saddam went on to offer protection to the entire Arab world (a role he claimed to have already discharged, when his country took on Iran) and called for a holy war against all Crusader heretics and their lackeys. |
http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/publications/42pub.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sooke
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
" "We will show the world America is a paper tiger." And the next day Iraq began drafting 17-year-olds."
Yes, because thats what strong armies do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sooke wrote: |
" "We will show the world America is a paper tiger." And the next day Iraq began drafting 17-year-olds."
Yes, because thats what strong armies do. |
No, man. Because that's what desperate and ruthless dictators bent on militarizing as much of their citizenry they can get their hands on will do.
How much it hurts you to admit that the U.S. is sometimes in the right...even to the point of defending Saddam's virtue in 1990-1991. Unbelievable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| No, man. Because that's what desperate and ruthless dictators bent on militarizing as much of their citizenry they can get their hands on will do. |
Doesnt that pretty much describe Bush's tactics right now? Enlistment drives in high schools, empty promises, calling up paper units, all to feed 'his' war! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
