|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: ... |
 |
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre
In case anyone's interested, I just happened to find out about this the past weekend while reading Secret Histories.
My respect for Powell goes down a serious notch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:31 am Post subject: Re: ... |
|
|
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
...
My respect for Powell goes down a serious notch. |
Must be a bitter blow for him to have lost your respect, though I'm sure he'll manage to carry on somehow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Edit--double post
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Surely, the victims of suicide bombings by Iraqis or foreigners committed [against] Iraqis should not be attributed to Bush |
(1) Well if the american troops werent there then there wouldnt be so many suicide bombings now would there? Or would there  ?
| Quote: |
| However, that's somewhat akin to saying Hirohito is responsible for the deaths of Japanese at the hands of the Russians in Manchuria, or for the victims of firebombing in Tokyo or the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki |
(2) Technically Hirohito was never more than the titular head of the country....he was a paper king and as such was ruled by his advisors. Bush has no such protection. Not a very apt comparison. |
(numbers are mine)
1. If there were no war in Iraq, who's to say that these bombers wouldn't be targeting America (or American interests in the world?) This is what OBL has urged many times. Even one more 9/11 is one too many.
2. Nonsense. Hirohito was considered a god and his word was law. As for his role Wikipedia gives a very good description of his involvement. Hirohito also forced his advisors to stop the war. (Not exactly the actions of a "paper king") Even after it had become apparent that the Allies had won the war, some wanted to carry on the struggle (literally to the last man and that included women and children as well). Lest anyone doubt their resolve does anyone remember that newstory about the Japanese soldier who was still carrying on the struggle alone in the jungle years after the war had ended? They had to use his former CO to get him to surrender. Nor was he alone. There were groups of Japanese soldiers (that became separated from the main forces) who were fighting on jungle islands THREE years after the war ended. And that despite receiving no supplies, reinforcements or equipment. THAT'S how the Japanese soldiers were trained.
For more on Hirohito's involvement read:
http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/07-02.asp
Or check Wikipedia.
Scroll down to the paragraph heading "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" Does THAT sound like a "paper king"?
For more on the above Japanese soldiers read:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/japan_no_surrender_01.shtml |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Where is your information on the alleged Shackley-Powell link coming from? How and when did they meet, particularly given that Shackley was out of govt service long before Power was Reagan's national security advisor? How do you support this claim? |
Frankly it doesn't matter where facts come from. People who think this way are constantly committing the same genetic fallacy. I'm assuming Gopher that, rather than fall victim to this, you prefer to think along logical lines.
A fact IS a fact.
You've never heard of this connection? The lineage in fact goes back even further. Not surprisingly, Shackley's mentor was THIS lovely guy ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny
Otto Skorzeny (June 12, 1908 - July 5, 1975) was a Obersturmbannfuhrer in the German Waffen-SS during World War II. He is best-known as the commando leader who rescued Benito Mussolini from imprisonment after his overthrow, and for his involvement in organizing one of ODESSA's most important base in Franco's Spain.
After Operation Greif, Otto Skorzeny was labelled "the most dangerous man in Europe".
Socrates, PLATO, Aristotle
Skorzeny, Shackley, Powell
Despite his retirement in 1979, controversy continued to surround Shackley over alleged involvement in the ��October Surprise�� of 1980, and also the "Iran-Contra�� affair of the mid eighties. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Regarded as divine and the embodiment of the Japanese state, the Emporer supposedly "lived beyond the clouds," above politics and government. In fact, he was interested and well informed. While he did not interfere, he was often present at important meetings. |
Paper King theory supported...he didnt interfere in politics nor try to influence decisions. It wasnt until he saw firsthand the devistation of Tokyo that he stood up and became more than a paper king.
The events leading up to Japans involvement in WWII fully support the fact that Hirohito was a paper king....that he became more later is irrelevant to my post. Nice try though! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Regarded as divine and the embodiment of the Japanese state, the Emporer supposedly "lived beyond the clouds," above politics and government. In fact, he was interested and well informed. While he did not interfere, he was often present at important meetings. |
Paper King theory supported...he didnt interfere in politics nor try to influence decisions. It wasnt until he saw firsthand the devistation of Tokyo that he stood up and became more than a paper king.
The events leading up to Japans involvement in WWII fully support the fact that Hirohito was a paper king....that he became more later is irrelevant to my post. Nice try though! |
What amuses me here is that the argument you make is very similar to the ones made by Americans at the Tokyo Tribunal that tried Tojo and the gang but did everything to give Hirohito a pass. In other words, here you are standing up for the American noble lie that Hirohito was not involved, despite monumental evidence to the contrary.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I havent seen any 'monumental' evidence....do you keep it in your sock drawer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Regarded as divine and the embodiment of the Japanese state, the Emporer supposedly "lived beyond the clouds," above politics and government. In fact, he was interested and well informed. While he did not interfere, he was often present at important meetings. |
Paper King theory supported...he didnt interfere in politics nor try to influence decisions. It wasnt until he saw firsthand the devistation of Tokyo that he stood up and became more than a paper king.
The events leading up to Japans involvement in WWII fully support the fact that Hirohito was a paper king....that he became more later is irrelevant to my post. Nice try though! |
The point is though that he NEVER was a "paper king". He had the power AT ANY TIME to overrule any decision. "Paper king" means a king in name only. Hirohito (as a god) had absolute power and next to absolute control over the general population and his advisors.
Simply because he did not USE the power doesn't mean that he was a "paper king" He still HAD the power whereas a "paper king" has NO power.
That's like saying Russia or China is a "paper nuclear power" based on the single fact that they have never used it.
As for Hirohito not interfering, why would he? That was the job of his advisors. Let the people with experience do their job. Only when he realized that they were incapable of doing it properly did he step in.
Unlike Hitler who fired his generals and assumed command himself he was no fool. Let the people with experience and training do the job and make the decisions. Otherwise why even HAVE advisors?
The "paper king" theory does not hold up. "Paper king" means king in name ONLY. Hirohito was never in that position once he assumed the throne. Not using his power does not mean he did not have it (which is what "paper king" would mean")
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Regarded as divine and the embodiment of the Japanese state, the Emporer supposedly "lived beyond the clouds," above politics and government. In fact, he was interested and well informed. While he did not interfere, he was often present at important meetings. |
Paper King theory supported...he didnt interfere in politics nor try to influence decisions. It wasnt until he saw firsthand the devistation of Tokyo that he stood up and became more than a paper king.
The events leading up to Japans involvement in WWII fully support the fact that Hirohito was a paper king....that he became more later is irrelevant to my post. Nice try though! |
What amuses me here is that the argument you make is very similar to the ones made by Americans at the Tokyo Tribunal that tried Tojo and the gang but did everything to give Hirohito a pass. In other words, here you are standing up for the American noble lie that Hirohito was not involved, despite monumental evidence to the contrary. |
The reason they gave Hirohito "a pass" is that they felt he was necessary in order to keep the country quiet. Installing a American regime would likely have touched off a massive insurgency that would have made today's insurgency in Iraq look like a children's playground.
The vast majority of Japanese devoutly believed in their Emperor's divinity. I have already illustrated examples of their ability to resist. Christians and Muslims are willing to die for their God, and there is no reason to assume the Japanese (most of them) would do otherwise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Simply because he did not USE the power doesn't mean that he was a "paper king" He still HAD the power whereas a "paper king" has NO power. |
Historically the Emporer of Japan was treated as a god and worshipped. He took little or no hand in running the country.
The comparison is:
Bush commanded and wanted to implement the invasion of Iraq. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Bush continues to send young men to their deaths on a daily basis. Notice the commonality here...Bush, Bush, Bush.
Hirohito did not order his people to start a war. Hirohito did not order his people to fight(he ordered them to stop).
The meaning behind the statement 'paper king' is that he never exercised his power until he ordered the surrender...so up until that time he was the leader of the country only on paper. Having power and not using it is not nearly the same as what Bush is doing!
| Quote: |
| That's like saying Russia or China is a "paper nuclear power" based on the single fact that they have never used it. |
No it isnt. Having an object cannot be compared to the actual involvement in the day to day running of a country and people. Oh, by the way, they have used it...they have done extensive nuclear testing...they just havent used it on another country.....yet.
Bush runs the US. He ordered the invasion. These are all Bushes decisions. Bush and Bush alone is responsible for the invasion.
The term paper nuclear power is assinine and you know it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Simply because he did not USE the power doesn't mean that he was a "paper king" He still HAD the power whereas a "paper king" has NO power. |
(1)Historically the Emporer of Japan was treated as a god and worshipped. He took little or no hand in running the country.
The comparison is:
Bush commanded and wanted to implement the invasion of Iraq. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Bush continues to send young men to their deaths on a daily basis. Notice the commonality here...Bush, Bush, Bush.
(2)Hirohito did not order his people to start a war. Hirohito did not order his people to fight(he ordered them to stop).
(3)The meaning behind the statement 'paper king' is that he never exercised his power until he ordered the surrender...so up until that time he was the leader of the country only on paper. Having power and not using it is not nearly the same as what Bush is doing!
| Quote: |
| That's like saying Russia or China is a "paper nuclear power" based on the single fact that they have never used it. |
No it isnt. Having an object cannot be compared to the actual involvement in the day to day running of a country and people. Oh, by the way, they have used it...they have done extensive nuclear testing...they just havent used it on another country.....yet.
Bush runs the US. He ordered the invasion. These are all Bushes decisions. Bush and Bush alone is responsible for the invasion.
(4)The term paper nuclear power is assinine and you know it. |
(numbers are mine)
1. Historically has nothing to do with it. Hirohito was one of the most involved Emperors.
2. No but he allowed it. If he had not wanted them to acquire an empire he could have stopped it. They had the Emperor's go-ahead.
3. A "paper king" has no power regardless. So it is not the correct term to describe Hirohito.
4. Of course it is. I was drawing a comparision between it and calling Hirohito a "paper king". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In his book "Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan" Herbert P. Bix "contends that Hirohito was personally and actively involved in Japan's aggressive war policies during World War II"
And Herbert P Bix is not just any author he won the 2001 Pulitzer prize for said book.
Hirohito's involvement was downplayed in order so that he could rule Japan and keep any insurgency from developing.
So who should people believe? Some guy on a discussion board or a Pulitzer prize winning author (who did a LOT more research and obviously if he won such a prize he knows what he is talking about)? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Where is your information on the alleged Shackley-Powell link coming from? How and when did they meet, particularly given that Shackley was out of govt service long before Power was Reagan's national security advisor? How do you support this claim? |
Frankly it doesn't matter where facts come from. People who think this way are constantly committing the same genetic fallacy. I'm assuming Gopher that, rather than fall victim to this, you prefer to think along logical lines.
A fact IS a fact.
You've never heard of this connection? The lineage in fact goes back even further. Not surprisingly, Shackley's mentor was THIS lovely guy ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny
Otto Skorzeny (June 12, 1908 - July 5, 1975) was a Obersturmbannfuhrer in the German Waffen-SS during World War II. He is best-known as the commando leader who rescued Benito Mussolini from imprisonment after his overthrow, and for his involvement in organizing one of ODESSA's most important base in Franco's Spain.
After Operation Greif, Otto Skorzeny was labelled "the most dangerous man in Europe".
Socrates, PLATO, Aristotle
Skorzeny, Shackley, Powell
Despite his retirement in 1979, controversy continued to surround Shackley over alleged involvement in the ��October Surprise�� of 1980, and also the "Iran-Contra�� affair of the mid eighties. |
I will not argue with you over this.
I merely state here that what you say above is possibly the most absurd collection of false allegations that I have seen yet on this board. All of what you say here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Regarded as divine and the embodiment of the Japanese state, the Emporer supposedly "lived beyond the clouds," above politics and government. In fact, he was interested and well informed. While he did not interfere, he was often present at important meetings. |
Paper King theory supported...he didnt interfere in politics nor try to influence decisions. It wasnt until he saw firsthand the devistation of Tokyo that he stood up and became more than a paper king.
The events leading up to Japans involvement in WWII fully support the fact that Hirohito was a paper king....that he became more later is irrelevant to my post. Nice try though! |
What amuses me here is that the argument you make is very similar to the ones made by Americans at the Tokyo Tribunal that tried Tojo and the gang but did everything to give Hirohito a pass. In other words, here you are standing up for the American noble lie that Hirohito was not involved, despite monumental evidence to the contrary. |
The reason they gave Hirohito "a pass" is that they felt he was necessary in order to keep the country quiet. Installing a American regime would likely have touched off a massive insurgency that would have made today's insurgency in Iraq look like a children's playground.
The vast majority of Japanese devoutly believed in their Emperor's divinity. I have already illustrated examples of their ability to resist. Christians and Muslims are willing to die for their God, and there is no reason to assume the Japanese (most of them) would do otherwise. |
Yes, I understand the theory. And I certainly think that MacArthur's decision was a safe one. That doesn't mean it was necessary. I don't think a massive insurgency was in order. Fascism could only justify itself through victory, or else it was in contradiction with itself. All the lies the Japanese were force fed (and so many gladly believed) came crashing down when soldiers painted as noble defenders of the Emperor started to scramble over army supplies and get them into the black market. And the Japanese had been acting Western enough since the success of the Meiji Restoration that an occupation by America was much more welcome than any of the alternatives.
As for the belief in their Emperor's divinity, you do understand that in the New Year of 1946, Hirohito was forced to declare in a radio broadcast that he was not divine? Why, after that radio broadcast, did no Japanese assault the occupation authorities?
I agree this is all hindsight, and I am not against what MacArthur did. But its another thing to say that just because MacArthur didn't experience a massive resistence that everything he did was necessary. Indeed, the Ningen-sengen and the peaceful response of the Japanese people seem to suggest that we shouldn't be afraid to challenge MacArthur's theory.
I think the real reason that there was no Japanese resistance was for two reasons. Firstly, the one given above, that the tenets of racial superiority and national power that form the backbone of fascism were contradicted by the massive display of American power towards the end of the war. Secondly, the Japanese had been fighting a perpetual war against many major powers for well over 15 years, not to mention that they had to quell quite a few insurrections. The people were exhausted, and the most militant die-hards were either dead already, saw the signs on the wall, or were in allied custody (the high command in particular) by the end of the war. Moreover, the response by the Japanese to democratic reforms was quite enthusiastic, and the Japanese handled the daily humiliation of the occupation considerably well, which consisted of affronts far more serious than having their Emperor admit that he is human. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
