Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ajuma]

Are there any rules about using in, at or on when used with the word "playground"? I've checked various sources and come up with zip.

He lost his book in the playground.

He lost his book on the playground.

He lost his book at the playground.


What about at or in with University?

He was at University.

He was in University.


Would/Do you use "the" after the preposition in either of these cases?

Does region matter? (BE vs AE?)

[Yu_Bum_suk]

It's idiomatic and regional. For instance, most Americans would say 'when I was in school'. Most Brit's would say 'at school'. Canadians might say either. Other things are determined by shape and context - 'playing in the swimming pool', 'playing on the soccer pitch', 'chatting at the health club'. There are few clear rules you could teach your students, and for conversational English I think it does't matter much except for very advanced students.

[VanIslander]

all above is okay...

except no "in the university", though "in the university bookstore" is fine

---------------

the differences are typical of "at" vs. "in" vs. "on"

Examples help show some differences of use:

Where's John? at the supermarket? at the park? at the beach? ... no, "at the playground". ("at" indicating general area located relative to other non-locations)

Where's John? I don't see him. Look! he's "on the playground" (visual cued language, usually used to indicate location within a given geographical space).

Where's John? Did he leave the park? No he's "in the playground". (not "out of", not "away from", the interior of the in/out)

[jay-shi]

[ajuma]

Well, maybe people in New York CITY say "on line" but upstate, we say "in line". To me, "on line" has to do with computers!

[jay-shi]

[ajuma]

That's ok. Anyone who's NOT from NYC HATES to be thought of as being from there! Most of us wish that NYC would just become a part of New Jersey!! They have a lot more in common with them than the rest of us REAL NY folk!

[jay-shi]

Aiiisssh ... you responded to my post before I finished editing it ...

Anyways, the essence of what I wanted to express is there, two posts above.

[Qinella]

Well, here's my understanding. Take it or leave it.

[Kiwi]

Hello

I have only read the very first post (so possibly this has already been answered)



On a simplistic level:

The greatest advantage of English is its ability to be accurate. As such when in Engineering fields or scientific fields many other countries and languages also use English words, even though they may speak a different language (they also use latin and a few portions of other European languages – hell English takes from other European languages) (an example is an old girlfriend in Taiwan, in the Military research labs they speak a mix of Mandarin and English – the purpose is for the use of the English words).

He lost his book in the playground.
ie. within the confines of the playground (in reality we are generally less accurate and only describe the area of the playground)
He lost his book on the playground.
ie. this is suggesting that the playground has some point in which he can place the book actually on the playground itself – this would be an uncommon thing to hear, as you do not typically place your book in the passage of kids playing.
He lost his book at the playground.
ie. this is the more grammatically correct variant of the first case, when it is meant ��in the area of the playground��




On a more complicated level:

Let me explain this first. English and American (also referred to as American English) are generally interchangeable. American and English are incredibly similar languages – but they are different in some very specific areas:



Speech:
There is the obvious case of Hollywood�� ALL actors either have a naturally clear voice or they have undergone voice training. It is one of the essentials in media; that the audience can understand you – as so, with reference to the ease of understanding the American language through speech, discard any opinion that has been developed through the American media, of any format!
But realistically accents, dialects, and clarity of speech affect everyone in all countries. Americans are generally considered (by English speakers) to be on the harder end of the scale to understand, ironically most Canadians never have any trouble (albeit they have a significant mix of both English and American English in their every day encounters)

Word meaning:
There are a few words that do have different meanings between the two languages, however these are few and far between. Example:
��Where��s my brolly?�� (an English word) Is asking: ��Where��s my umbrella?�� (both an English and an American word).

Grammar:
Firstly, please understand grammar is spoken, not written!!! Ideally we should be writing as if we were actually speaking what we are writing. Grammar is spoken first and translated into written format only as a result of the speech format.
Grammar and sentence structure are very closely linked, but for the purpose of this explanation I shall separate them.
The American grammar is, in some respects, different from that of English. Though not by any great leaps and bounds. Unless you became significantly interested in the workings of law (or got caught out in a case) you would probably not realise this (however myself knowing the difference it can become irritating someone who should be able to write in English correctly formatting their work in American). There are a few different words used in different situations, and the use of punctuation is fractionally different. But this is not worth dwelling upon.

SENTENCE STRUCTURE!!!:
This is the BIG difference between English and American!!!
There are reasons why this has become the case, but I shall skip those and jump straight to the examples (as they make it easy to understand).
In American it is acceptable and correct to use the following phrase:
��Let��s go jog��
Whereas if you came to an English speaking country and said that to someone they may go to the extent of actually asking you what you mean, but generally they would simply try to guess and take it as either a simply slip of the tongue or laziness / ignorance on your part.
In English this phrase is translated into any of the following (plus additionals):
��Let��s go for a jog��
��Let��s go and plan a jog��
��Let��s go and prepare for a jog��
��Let��s go and organise a jog��
��Let��s go and exercise a jog (or; for a jog – two different meanings)��
��Let��s go and arrange a jog��
��Let��s go and take a jog��
Cutting all the bull shit – English is a more accurate language. Having said this many of the modern youth now-a-days make an effort to imitate their favourite movie star, or pop idol – also imitating the Americanisms of the language. Example of what can commonly be heard (a bit old but a good example):
��Like, I did this yesterday��. Like, it was so great��
I know you��ve heard this before!

Moving on��
To answer your question:

These are both written in the American sentence structure:
He was at University.
He was in University.

This is the same thing re-written in the English sentence structure:
He was at The University. (Note: in this case The University is a name)
He was in the university. (Note: in this case the university is not a name)





Does All Of This Really Make Much Of A Difference???

In essence – between native English and American speakers – NO!

However��. have any of you observed and witnessed the pain and hardship that a Chinese girl (or guy) goes through when she is trying to communicate in an English country and can��t be understood?
(Or Japanese, or Korean, or Thai, or ����, et cetera)


She has been taught the American language, and is not particularly good at it!
So where an American national could come to the English speaking country and people would be able to understand the conversation, if even to the point of guessing a few small things, the English speakers would understand the essence of the meaning. The Chinese girl cannot speak her American as clearly, as confidently, or as articulately as the American national can. And so she has a double blow to her ability to communicate. Not only is she only speaking in half sentences (as she has been taught) but she is also rather disadvantaged in her ability to communicate those half sentences – this often does not result in a particularly satisfactory result for her communication efforts. Often she (or he) is instantly discriminated against. She (or he) feels isolated and retreats to the company of other Chinese, to the point of leaving the English speaking accommodation and moving to the Chinese accommodation, simply because it has become too hard over time (there are always exceptions – but I have seen this sooooo many times!) They are naturally shy people anyway – they become additionally shy because not only are they not good at English, but they feel that people will not give them the chance. This in no way advantages them when they do arrive in an English speaking country.
(Note: I do not want to be bias, the English speaking nationals are not trying to be discouraging to the Chinese girl (or guy) – they just simply find it rather difficult to understand and communicate with someone speaking in such broken English. As such they themselves tend to feel embarrassed and then rationalise this by believing that they ��do not have enough time��, ��are too busy��, ��do not like foreigners��, ��foreigners are rude��, et cetera.)

This is a vicious cycle!!!!
I personally spend much of my free time (when the opportunity arrises) to try my best to help these people. I still have (or have had) friends I have developed simply by helping them from countries including: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Indonesia, Veitnam, India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Zimbabwe, so other African countries, Columbia, and Brazil. (more Asians travel to my part of the world – thus more Asian countries).


Just a piece for thought.


In reality I expect that there are many different reasons for these difficulties faced by people learning English. Including the grammar and structure of their original language. Have you ever noticed that a Japanese person will structure their sentences in almost exactly the same way they would in Japanese, just speaking the English words – it takes practice to make this switch in the mind (the Chinese are also excellent examples of this).



Have fun guys!




[After all this - Please excuse my spelling and grammatical mistakes ]

[ajuma]

Kiwi: Good post! I am aware of the differences between American and British (as I prefer to say, rather than English) English. I taught for a year in the Czech Republic and as they are more interested in learning British English, I had to learn the grammar for it.

I found that, besides the differences in vocab (boot=trunk, lift=elevator), the biggest differences were in preposition use. While BE users would say "at the weekend", AE users would say "on the weekend". Other differences were "in hospital" (meaning they were patients) as opposed to "in THE hospital" (same meaning for AE speakers, but BE speakers mean that they are physically in the hospital but not necessarily a patient).

My question was about the rule for using "at", "on" or "in" the playground. I would say that "Let's meet AT" or "Let's meet IN" the playground would both be fine, but "He was playing IN" or "He was playing ON" the playground are also both fine.

I guess I'll teach my students (most of whom will be going to the US or Canada to study) that using "in" or "on" are both acceptable, and hope that this question will never come up on the TOEFL test!!

[ontheway]

Accuracy in English:

A long winded poster above wrote about accuracy in English. Much of the post is incomprehensible, however. The truth is that only American English is understood worldwide. The extreme variations of what people claim to be BE are often impossible to understand. And while English is becoming a global language it will continue to diverge from the scattered remnants who speak real British English.

Why? It's because AE was made by people from around the world mixing and improving the language. AE is becoming more and more homogeneous. Regional variations and accents are disappearing, and addional speakers from around the world continue to join in. This will continue as billions more join the English speaking world. Eventually, Asians will have to go to New Zealand (and other BE holdout nations) to teach the locals there the new world English.

the playground:

"at the playground" - the point of view is from another location

"in the playground" - is used only to contrast being inside as opposed to being outside but in the vicinity of the playground: ("outside the playground")

"on the playground" - would be used when you are at a school that also has a playground belonging to that same school, so that you can be on this alternative location within the same institution. (Also: "on the football field, tennis court, soccer field" etc.)

I never heard an American say "at university". Americans say "at the university" or "when I was going to the university" etc.