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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Claws Out Over Claim China Discovered America |
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Claws out over claim China discovered America
By Lindsay Beck and Ben Blanchard
Tue Jan 17, 8:55 AM ET
BEIJING (Reuters) - The Chinese are said to have discovered gunpowder, paper and the compass, but it may be too early to claim they discovered America.
A map purported to date from 1418 suggesting a Chinese fleet sailed to America decades before Christopher Columbus was displayed in Beijing Monday, but the piece of yellowing paper is the center of a storm of criticism over its authenticity.
The map, which is said to be an 18th-century copy of the 1418 original, shows both North and South America in unusual detail.
It was bought in 2001 by Chinese lawyer and art collector Liu Gang, who says he did not realize its significance until reading a book by a British writer who claimed a Chinese admiral beat Columbus to the punch.
Gavin Menzies, author of the bestseller "1421: the Year China Discovered America," says Admiral Zheng He led a fleet of 30,000 men aboard 300 ships to the American continent in the 15th century to expand Ming China's influence.
"This map embodies information I believe will help us understand Zheng He's seventh voyage," Liu, who bought the map for $500, told a news conference.
"The map shows us the Chinese explorer has been to America years before Columbus. The map also shows us the Chinese understanding of the entire world."
Yet whether Zheng, a Muslim eunuch known to have sailed as far as southern Africa, beat Columbus to America by more than 70 years is bitterly debated.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060117/od_nm/china_map_dc_1;_ylt=AiFc_5daKlhm2TRXSSAn9OZ.KcMA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5bGVna3NhBHNlYwNzc3JlbA-- |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Do they not realize how many "genuine" ancient artifacts in China were made yesterday and being sold to stupid tourists  |
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chiaa
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| So uh where is the orginal? |
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buster brown
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone read the book "1421: The Year China Discovered America"? I read a little of it and it seemed interesting, but I had to ask myself "Why isn't there some scholarly work produced on this topic?" I had the same reaction as if I'd seen an infomercial touting the 'latest scientific discovery'...if it's really founded on good research, then it's going to be written up somewhere other than a book published for the masses. I'm not totally discounting its accuracy, just seems an odd way to publish such an important find. Anyway, just my two cents worth.
I'd like to hear from anyone who's read the book or knows something more about the topic. |
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Sooke
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| buster brown wrote: |
I'd like to hear from anyone who's read the book or knows something more about the topic. |
Haven't got the book, but I downloaded a documentary from bittorrent. It's a neat idea, but even in the documentary the evidence looked pretty weak. From what I recall, a lot of the evidence relies on a grave plaque commerating the guy's journey, and a 'Chinese lighthouse' found in Rhode Island. And the author figures they went to Africa first and some Chinese guys stayed there and mixed in with the locals, and they showed the locals nowadays and they definately looked a little Asian (but there could be other explainations for that.) Anyway, he figures they went around Africa, hit South America, and then went up to North America. I wouldn't say it's a strong theory, but it is a pretty fun idea.
http://www.1421.tv/
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421_hypothesis
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doublejeopardy
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| buster brown wrote: |
Has anyone read the book "1421: The Year China Discovered America"? I read a little of it and it seemed interesting, but I had to ask myself "Why isn't there some scholarly work produced on this topic?" I had the same reaction as if I'd seen an infomercial touting the 'latest scientific discovery'...if it's really founded on good research, then it's going to be written up somewhere other than a book published for the masses. I'm not totally discounting its accuracy, just seems an odd way to publish such an important find. Anyway, just my two cents worth.
I'd like to hear from anyone who's read the book or knows something more about the topic. |
I read that book. It was an interesting idea and not completely outta the realm of possibility, however, the author completely undermined his own arguement by constantly saying, "We're waiting on tests on this, we're waiting for results on that" and taking a little bit of information and making grand assumptions based on it. I wouldn't say it didn't happen but his book is certainly no where near proof that it did. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| doublejeopardy wrote: |
| buster brown wrote: |
Has anyone read the book "1421: The Year China Discovered America"? I read a little of it and it seemed interesting, but I had to ask myself "Why isn't there some scholarly work produced on this topic?" I had the same reaction as if I'd seen an infomercial touting the 'latest scientific discovery'...if it's really founded on good research, then it's going to be written up somewhere other than a book published for the masses. I'm not totally discounting its accuracy, just seems an odd way to publish such an important find. Anyway, just my two cents worth.
I'd like to hear from anyone who's read the book or knows something more about the topic. |
I read that book. It was an interesting idea and not completely outta the realm of possibility, however, the author completely undermined his own arguement by constantly saying, "We're waiting on tests on this, we're waiting for results on that" and taking a little bit of information and making grand assumptions based on it. I wouldn't say it didn't happen but his book is certainly no where near proof that it did. |
I felt the exact same. The theories were possible and if the evidence is true then it would be a facinating development... but the book was far from conclusive.
The questions is, why would any historian really want to take this on? Other than the Chinese, who would gain from this becoming the dominant theory? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Claws Out Over Claim China Discovered America |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The map, which is said to be an 18th-century copy of the 1418 original, shows both North and South America in unusual detail[/size].
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I was wondering why the map looked far more accurate than it should for something that reportedly dates to the 15th century. In any case, the natives discovered America far before the 15th century. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| The questions is, why would any historian really want to take this on? Other than the Chinese, who would gain from this becoming the dominant theory? |
A point people have yet to raise is that even if Chinese sea explorers set foot on North American soil a few years Columbus ... SO WHAT?!?
The Vikings are known to have settled various parts of the east coast hundreds of years prior. Did the Han Chinese settle any parts they claim to have visited?
Interestingly, it has long been believed ancient Chinese Buddhist monks ventured along the west coast of the Americas. There still exist the stories among the west coast natives.
http://www.kidsolr.com/history/page2.html
Assuming they DID visit North America, there's one thing missed out on: CONQUERING IT !!!
Ironically it seems that's exactly what Beijing, through historical propaganda & global economics is now finally setting out to accomplish. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| The questions is, why would any historian really want to take this on? Other than the Chinese, who would gain from this becoming the dominant theory? |
I had the apparently strange impression that science wasn't done for personal gain, but in the name of truth and accuracy. It's not as if the author was sitting around and suddenly thought, "By golly! It's time the Chinese were given some new props!!" |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| The questions is, why would any historian really want to take this on? Other than the Chinese, who would gain from this becoming the dominant theory? |
A point people have yet to raise is that even if Chinese sea explorers set foot on North American soil a few years Columbus ... SO WHAT?!?
The Vikings are known to have settled various parts of the east coast hundreds of years prior. Did the Han Chinese settle any parts they claim to have visited? |
There it is. I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone came in and stated the obvious. The other interesting thing is that Colombus was Spanish, so there's no reason for Americans to care. And then what makes it even more silly is that natives were already on the continent for just about forever, so nobody really gets to claim to discover it. When Colombus arrived, they were on the shore to greet him.  |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Does this mean that Colombus Day sales are out, and that Zheng Day is in? It just doesn't have the same ring to it... |
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BigBlackEquus
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Lotte controls Asia with bad chocolate!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Claws Out Over Claim China Discovered America |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The map, which is said to be an 18th-century copy of the 1418 original, shows both North and South America in unusual detail[/size].
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I was wondering why the map looked far more accurate than it should for something that reportedly dates to the 15th century. In any case, the natives discovered America far before the 15th century. |
Same here... they are claiming the guy sailed up and down all of the coasts to map that??? Ha! |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Claws Out Over Claim China Discovered America |
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| BigBlackEquus wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The map, which is said to be an 18th-century copy of the 1418 original, shows both North and South America in unusual detail[/size].
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I was wondering why the map looked far more accurate than it should for something that reportedly dates to the 15th century. In any case, the natives discovered America far before the 15th century. |
Same here... they are claiming the guy sailed up and down all of the coasts to map that??? Ha! |
Actually BBE, the claim is *slightly* more complex than that. There were a number of fleets and the map was drawn and peiced together at different times.
Thus adding to the theory that Columus was in possesion of at least a partial map of the new world. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: |
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The whole "discover" thing in exploration is ridiculus. The Americas are only the most glaring example. Heck, the polar explorers get kudos for "discovering" the poles!!! What, no one knew they were there????
The same is true of so much in history. IT should be something like, "Stupid Europeans and their descendants finally figure out what we found 30k years ago. Dildos." |
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