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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Mr. Pink

Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Location: China
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| visitor q wrote: |
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| FACT: Koreans want to learn American pronunciation. I have yet to meet a single adult student to the contrary, and yet... most of my shipbuilding adult students converse with European foreigners at the local shipyards. |
You live on an island in the middle of nowhere. What you said is not FACT. I speak British English, and I teach in an actual city; you'd be surprised at how many Koreans want to learn British English for the novelty, or just for the fact that they are moving to England/Australia/South Africa.
Your lies are unfounded and without proof. Please stop polluting this forum until you have actually taught in mainland Korea, and in an actual city. |
I teach in an actual city, I have taught in and around Seoul for 9yrs. People want to learn AMERICAN English. If you look at the two biggest tests that people take for English: TOEIC and TOEFL which form of English do you think is being tested? Now think about why they want to learn American English.
You must be new to Korea to think British English is important when dealing with Koreans and English education. |
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thaitom

Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Location: Phopphra, Thailand
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| In Thailand they prefer British-English. |
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thaitom

Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Location: Phopphra, Thailand
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I just explained it's a matter of accent, depending on where you live
( west coast,east coast, ect...), that they can say it either way, it's not that important. Now they understand. |
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SeoulMan6
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Location: Gangwon-do
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think American vs British English is the most overrated aspect of EFL! Have you ever used a CD that had different dialects? Can your students even tell that there is a difference?! Rarely. I doubt most Koreans could find differences between a Glaswegian and a Texan!
Granted, some vocabulary can be confusing, but most differences are insignificant to all but advanced learners. As if a Korean going to London would somehow be unitelligable because their teacher in Korea was from the U.S.? A Korean living abroad would soon pick up "flat" and "f_g" over "apartment" and "cigarette".
p.s. I didn't know Dave's had a controls for language - it "beeped" out the British word for cigarette!!! |
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keithinkorea

Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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p.s. I didn't know Dave's had a controls for language - it "beeped" out the British word for cigarette!!! |
That's because f@g is the American word for poofter. My theory is that Dave favours standard English users, as it is much easier for us to use 'naughty' language. The swear filter is a lot more effective against users of the degraded American language.
Personally the mocking attempt some Koreans make at a stereotypical American accent is foul. Warder, budderfly, nadural! These are not words in my language. Koreans should try and speak more clearly. They have loads of difficulty with clear pronunciation the last thing we need is egotistical North American English teachers here teaching them bad grammar and garbled pronunciation.
Examples of things some English teachers should be shot for teaching Korean students:
'Warder'
'Budder'
OTT contraction such as 'Whereja?' instead of ' Where did you? The former sounds rather like wedger doesn't it. They have ddong chims here already they don't need wedgers too.
OTT laziness such as inventing adverbs that barely even exist such as 'goodly'. I got flamed on this board one time for suggesting that Martha Stewart saying 'you have to mash the tomadoes up real goodly' was shocking English. This is standard 'retardish' rather than English. It's almost as though some (not all) North Americans are actually trying to completely sabotage the English language. I had a coworker who wrote on a report card 'this student reads real good'! He was an English major at a US university!
TOEIC and TOEFL are crappy tests, but have been marketed in Korea very well and many Koreans are obsessed with them. IMO they are pretty useless, I've helped a lot of Koreans studying them and I always think why are they learning this useless crap when they could be actually learning to communicate effectively. Ticking the right box in a 'multiple guess' test is a silly waste of time, Squandering valuable study time on TOEIC and TOEFL are one of the main reasons many Koreans are so useless at using the language.
I've said it before 'clarity is the key' not butchered, dogs dinner faux American accents with a helping 'goodly' helping of Konglish.
Last edited by keithinkorea on Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| keithinkorea wrote: |
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p.s. I didn't know Dave's had a controls for language - it "beeped" out the British word for cigarette!!! |
That's because f@g is the American word for poofter. My theory is that Dave favours standard English users, as it is much easier for us to use 'naughty' language. The swear filter is a lot more effective against users of the degraded American language.
Personally the mocking attempt some Koreans make at a stereotypical American accent is foul. Warder, budderfly, nadural! These are not words in my language. Koreans should try and speak more clearly. They have loads of difficulty with clear pronunciation the last thing we need is egotistical North American English teachers here teaching them bad grammar and garbled pronunciation.
Examples of things some English teachers should be shot for teaching Korean students:
'Warder'
'Budder'
OTT contraction such as 'Whereja?' instead of ' Where did you? The former sounds rather like wedger doesn't it. They have ddong chims here already they don't need wedgers too.
OTT laziness such as inventing adverbs that barely even exist such as 'goodly'. I got flamed on this board one time for suggesting that Martha Stewart saying 'you have to mash the tomadoes up real goodly' was shocking English. This is standard 'retardish' rather than English. It's almost as though some (not all) North Americans are actually trying to completely sabotage the English language. I had a coworker who wrote on a report card 'this student reads real good'! He was an English major at a US university!
TOEIC and TOEFL are crappy tests, but have been marketed in Korea very well and many Koreans are obsessed with them. IMO they are pretty useless, I've helped a lot of Koreans studying them and I always think why are they learning this useless crap when they could be actually learning to communicate effectively. Ticking the right box in a 'multiple guess' test is a silly waste of time, Squandering valuable study time on TOEIC and TOEFL are one of the main reasons many Koreans are so useless at using the language.
I've said it before 'clarity is the key' not butchered, dogs dinner faus American accents with a helping good helping of Konglish. |
Nothing's wrong with teaching "butter" as "budder" and the like. You say "warder" for "water" is bad. How about British English saying "warter". Huh? |
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keithinkorea

Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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There is a clue in how English should be pronounced. Where does the language come from? A 'warder' is someone who works in a prison.
My Korean is weak, but when I speak it do with standard Seoul satori. I don't try and speak like a resident of Jeju or Cholla province.
The international standard of English is British English. North Americans can't even agree on spelling. |
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SeoulMan6
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Location: Gangwon-do
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| keithinkorea wrote: |
| There is a clue in how English should be pronounced. Where does the language come from? |
I can only hope you are joking!
For a list of English dialects, try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language
Now try and tell me that there is one way English should be pronounced. |
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IwalkAlone
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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The origins of a language mean what exactly? The preferences of your students surely has more weight than some brit tooting his horn off about the superiority of british english because it hatched the language. I favor american english, my students favor it too. Even my employer shows how he favors it (I make an extra 100,000 W). I enjoy listening to different accents of the same language, especially australian and british. I even mock them from time to time.
But really now, can people honestly believe british accent is more desired than north american? And then defend that belief because english originated in England? Human life somehow originated in the fertile crescent in present day Iraq (according to historians)....not too powerful a nation nowadays based on that theory. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Location: Easy Street.
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Oh god, not this old chestnut again.
keithinkorea give it up for god's sake. It's everyone's gut instinct to say a someone else's variety of English is 'wrong', but there's no rationality behind it. Both British and American English have consistent underlying sets of rules, which differ in important but mutually intelligible respects.
It doesn't matter if you say 'war/t/er' or 'wa/d/er'! It's Konglish that's the enemy! There's no logic behind it, only the pathology of misunderstanding and mistranslation. We should call a truce and team up on Konglish instead. |
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TJ
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: Soultion to your problem |
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| thaitom wrote: |
| That's what I have been doing, but now I have been told to stop correcting their pronunciation. I guess I am making the Korean teachers look bad. |
Why not do what I did ..... I taught at least one lesson each semester in which I compared Nth American - English - Australian - New Zealand pronunciation and spelling. I did not say which was better but I did make sure my students understood that there were several "versions" of the English language.
I've spoken English all my life and I sometimes have trouble understanding other people's accents. Imagine how difficult it must be for non native speakers who do not know that these variations exist.
If you explain this clearly and concisely to your boss he (hopefully) will understand. |
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the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| SeoulMan6 wrote: |
| I doubt most Koreans could find differences between a Glaswegian and a Texan! |
Negative.
While I'm only on the side of clear pronunciation (that is, as long as the greatest number of people understand it, it doesn't matter, water or wader -- whatever).
I do, however, go over accents in class quite a bit as a means of creating sensitivity to how the language is pronounced so that if a student finds him/herself misunderstood they can think about other ways it can be said.
Anyway, I had an audio of 11 different accents reading the same sentence and while reading along students would note differences they heard between the accents. Glaswegian, even with the words in front of everybody, was understood by nobody. |
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ajuma

Joined: 18 Feb 2003 Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Our students really need to know that there is more than one way to pronounce words. They may study in America (Texas, California, New Jersey or Boston!), England, Canada or New Zealand. They may travel and have to communicate in English with someone else whose native language is not English. Teaching them that one pronunciation is right and the rest of the world is wrong isn't preparing them for the real world, now is it? And when you leave your school, will they replace the teacher from the same linguistic area that you are from? Probably not! |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003 Location: pusan baby!
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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[quote="VanIslander"]
73 % of all native English speakers are American and Canadian.
A 'guestimate of use' has nothing to do with native speaker populations does it?
If you take into account the majority of Europe plus India,The entire Middle East and Africa...a guestimate of use would be more like 10% American English 90% British 'derived pron' English.
However Ill give you its an important 10% (apart from Canada). |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005 Location: Boo-sahn
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
| VanIslander wrote: |
73 % of all native English speakers are American and Canadian.
A 'guestimate of use' has nothing to do with native speaker populations does it?
If you take into account the majority of Europe plus India,The entire Middle East and Africa...a guestimate of use would be more like 10% American English 90% British 'derived pron' English.
However Ill give you its an important 10% (apart from Canada). |
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Actually, I was going to try and argue that one as well, but...with the pop of American, VanIslander is right(for native speakers of English anyway)
I'm not going to do all of the math now, but if you try to add it up based upon pop, the numbers may be lower, but not by much.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
United States
295,734,134 (July 2005 est.)
English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7% (2000 census)
Canada
32,805,041 (July 2005 est.)
English (official) 59.3%, French (official) 23.2%, other 17.5%
United Kingdom
60,441,457 (July 2005 est.)
English, Welsh (about 26% of the population of Wales), Scottish form of Gaelic (about 60,000 in Scotland)
Ireland
4,015,676 (July 2005 est.)
English (official) is the language generally used, Irish (official) (Gaelic or Gaeilge) spoken mainly in areas located along the western seaboard
South Africa
44,344,136 note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2005 est.)
IsiZulu 23.8%, IsiXhosa 17.6%, Afrikaans 13.3%, Sepedi 9.4%, English 8.2%, Setswana 8.2%, Sesotho 7.9%, Xitsonga 4.4%, other 7.2% (2001 census)
Singapore
4,425,720 (July 2005 est.)
Mandarin 35%, English 23%, Malay 14.1%, Hokkien 11.4%, Cantonese 5.7%, Teochew 4.9%, Tamil 3.2%, other Chinese dialects 1.8%, other 0.9% (2000 census)
Hong Kong
6,898,686 (July 2005 est.)
Chinese (Cantonese), English; both are official
Australia
20,090,437 (July 2005 est.)
English 79.1%, Chinese 2.1%, Italian 1.9%, other 11.1%, unspecified 5.8% (2001 Census)
New Zealand
4,035,461 (July 2005 est.)
English (official), Maori (official)
India
1,080,264,388 (July 2005 est.)
English enjoys associate status but is the most important language for national, political, and commercial communication; Hindi is the national language and primary tongue of 30% of the people; there are 14 other official languages: Bengali, Telugu, Marathi, Tamil, Urdu, Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Punjabi, Assamese, Kashmiri, Sindhi, and Sanskrit; Hindustani is a popular variant of Hindi/Urdu spoken widely throughout northern India but is not an official language
China
1,306,313,812 (July 2005 est.)
Standard Chinese or Mandarin (Putonghua, based on the Beijing dialect), Yue (Cantonese), Wu (Shanghaiese), Minbei (Fuzhou), Minnan (Hokkien-Taiwanese), Xiang, Gan, Hakka dialects, minority languages (see Ethnic groups entry)
The pop alone of the last two countries might topple the US out of contention, but I guess we have to think about what we are trying to assess. When it comes to native English speakers, and even if we threw Canada into the Commonwealth mix, America wins. |
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