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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Re: "The Americans will always do the right thing... |
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| Wangja wrote: |
After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
- Winston Churchill |
And to update the quote....
and after they launch a probe to Pluto, and after they gather space dust from a shooting Comet!"
Churchill was a drunk European, whose country was saved by the same Yanks he (temporarily) disparaged.
Oy Vay...... |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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It's funny,
My ancestors fought against the King to establish a democracy more than 2 centuries ago. And here I am, in a country on the other side of the Earth more or less liberated by the same people(oh, I know, Brits and Canadians fought as well, just like the Koreans and Japanese in Iraq) and I am offered up decades old tidbits anti-American commentary by a long-dead European.
When will they learn????? |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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and Fisk you say????? You mean that amazingly objective journalist? The one who gave birth to the Fiskie????
Well, may he long be immortalized for his supreme idiotarianism.
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Here's another nice Churchill quote for you:
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| A man is about as big as the things that make him angry. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Wait. This thread is a riddle.
Winston Churchill himself advocated and eventually used chemical weapons against Iraqis in the 1920s.
The statement above is largely subjective. What is the right way in any situation? At least we can say, it must at least be what the person themselves think is right.
Therefore, the quote means to remind us, that although at first the Americans armed Iraq as a foil against Iran in the 1980s, and later attacked Iraq during the Gulf War in the 1990s, Saddam still was not defanged and was a problem. So, finally, the Americans, left with no other options, were forced to go into Iraq and basically gas the recalcitrant Iraqis (Fallujah). |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
and Fisk you say????? You mean that amazingly objective journalist? The one who gave birth to the Fiskie????
Well, may he long be immortalized for his supreme idiotarianism. |
The thing about Fisk, is he makes no qualms about what he writes being objective at all....it is written from the context of what he sees, on what people tell him, he is basically a transmitter of the things occurring on the ground...
He chooses to write about things that many journalists don't because how can they write about something they could never see sitting in their hotel bar, while he is out actually meeting with and interviewing the people that they can only hypothesize about, and usually only within their own strict prejudices.....
Whose objectivity do you want him to write about, yours, Bush's, bin Laden's, a pair of cartoonists (who as far as I can tell have never even set foot into the Middle East), mine??????
There are so many of these so called "objectivities". Why not examine the work of a man who has spent the past thirty years of his life writing about, living in, and basically experiencing what this struggle is all about.....and yes he tells it from his own perspective, all of which are based upon personal experience, that one can now take into account and contrast with others who have similar experience...I don't base my opinion on one book about the Middle East, but every single one that I can get my hands on...this is an important book just because of the sheer scale of the analysis.
It has it's faults, Fisk is a reporter and a historian, yet thus far, he doesn't really have the answers that are needed to solve the problems that he berates.
The thing that I have found to be most interesting thus far is how he portrays the villians of this story. Many of us have no concept of how people could ever follow the hate and the fanaticism of the Khomenis and the bin Ladens of this story but Fisk makes us understand this by showing the power that these types of men have over those around them. To understand is at least one way to solve a problem; and it is this understanding that is the begining of a hopeful solution to this whole giant problem.
It seems that understanding has become the last and least used alternative... |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Wait. This thread is a riddle.
Winston Churchill himself advocated and eventually used chemical weapons against Iraqis in the 1920s.
The statement above is largely subjective. What is the right way in any situation? At least we can say, it must at least be what the person themselves think is right.
Therefore, the quote means to remind us, that although at first the Americans armed Iraq as a foil against Iran in the 1980s, and later attacked Iraq during the Gulf War in the 1990s, Saddam still was not defanged and was a problem. So, finally, the Americans, left with no other options, were forced to go into Iraq and basically gas the recalcitrant Iraqis (Fallujah). |
Good point, I think it is also worthy to note that the Americans are now facing the same sort of problems that he British did in the 20s: an occupation, and increasing body count, slipping support at home, an insurgency, etc.......
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"How much longer, are valuable lives to be sacrificed in the vain endeavour to impose upon the Arab population an elaborate and expensive administration which they never asked for and do not want?"
London Times - August 7, 1920 |
This is not a new thing for the Middle East, the super powers of the past have tried and failed, and this is how those who are fighting will always see it.... |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
Here's another nice Churchill quote for you:
| Quote: |
| A man is about as big as the things that make him angry. |
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Offer as many quotes as you will,
but the FACT is that the same country/army disparaged by Churchill in the title of this thread, is the very SAME ARMY that helped defeat EUROPEAN FACISM and COMMUNISM, defeated JAPANESE FACISM WITHOUT MUCH HELP, manned the ramparts during the cold war, STARED DOWN THE SOVIET EMPIRE, DISLODGED SADDAM and the TALIBAN...
oh yeah, and last week, went onto Pluto...
meanwhile,
the peanut gallery is totally FREAKED by the presence of the US in Iraq...
sit back kids......enjoy the ride. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
Here's another nice Churchill quote for you:
| Quote: |
| A man is about as big as the things that make him angry. |
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Offer as many quotes as you will,
but the FACT is that the same country/army disparaged by Churchill in the title of this thread, is the very SAME ARMY that helped defeat EUROPEAN FACISM and COMMUNISM, defeated JAPANESE FACISM WITHOUT MUCH HELP, manned the ramparts during the cold war, STARED DOWN THE SOVIET EMPIRE, DISLODGED SADDAM and the TALIBAN...
oh yeah, and last week, went onto Pluto...
meanwhile,
the peanut gallery is totally FREAKED by the presence of the US in Iraq...
sit back kids......enjoy the ride. |
Yes, America has done plenty of good things for the world, more than bad. To be honest, I think (though I can't be quite sure), America has done more for the world than any other country/empire/etc in history. The only problem is when it does make a mistake, it tends to be just as big. I have no problem with America being what it was, but people are afraid that it is slipping. And that does affect the world. It has done good, which has affected us all. We just don't want it to go sour and start doing bad things on the same scale. And don't tell me America isn't slipping, because that is not what most of my American friends say. I just hope 2008 will turn things around. Though as a Canadian, I think we are about to put Harper into power, which is just as bad but without the major consequences. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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America has done more for the world than any other country in history ?????
Sir you need to get some sleep. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| And don't tell me America isn't slipping, because that is not what most of my American friends say. |
Your American friends are blowing a temporary problem (an unpopular president, waging an unjst war) so far out of proportion that you might think that the entire world was about to come to an end. But I assure you this is very small on the cosmic scale of things, and especially in the context of U.S. history, which is not nearly finished yet... |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| And don't tell me America isn't slipping, because that is not what most of my American friends say. |
Your American friends are blowing a temporary problem (an unpopular president, waging an unjst war) so far out of proportion that you might think that the entire world was about to come to an end. But I assure you this is very small on the cosmic scale of things, and especially in the context of U.S. history, which is not nearly finished yet... |
No, no, it's more than that. I mean internally too. Crime, cutbacks on freedom, the gap between the poor and the rich, etc... Just coming from their mouths. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
America has done more for the world than any other country in history ?????
Sir you need to get some sleep. |
It has brought schools and infrastructure to many countries. It has created an atmosphere where many inventions have been thought of that have helped the world. It spends a lot of money on the exploration of space. Before the current adminitstration, it use to be an example of freedom (to the world, even if not perfect). etc...etc... Again, many bad things, but people forget about the good. By the way, I am Canadian just incase you think I am biased. Name a country that has helped the world more (don't say Britian, other than the English language, they didn't leave as good of infrastructure when they left). The Vatican hasn't, even with all of it's missionaries. Yes, it has done a lot of bad too. You see it all the time. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the good either. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| And don't tell me America isn't slipping, because that is not what most of my American friends say. |
Your American friends are blowing a temporary problem (an unpopular president, waging an unjst war) so far out of proportion that you might think that the entire world was about to come to an end. But I assure you this is very small on the cosmic scale of things, and especially in the context of U.S. history, which is not nearly finished yet... |
No, no, it's more than that. I mean internally too. Crime, cutbacks on freedom, the gap between the poor and the rich, etc... Just coming from their mouths. |
crime is lower now than pretty much any time post WW II.
Gap between rich and poor has steadily grown since Nixon's presidency (with clinton years being the one exception), so nothing new there.
While I do agree if we have another couple presidents like Dubya, we'll be in trouble, I wouldn't say things are on the long-term downslope. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| No, no, it's more than that. I mean internally too. Crime, cutbacks on freedom, the gap between the poor and the rich, etc... Just coming from their mouths. |
This has come up before. The U.S. has a much more transparent government and economy as well as a much more active, indeed aggressive and critical, media than most other parts of the world.
Here are many, but not all, of our declassified documents (NSC, State, CIA, Pentagon) available to anyone in the world who can get on the internet, 24/7 -- others are only available in print at the moment...
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/
Where are Australia, Canada, or Britain's? Where are Angola, the Congo, Guatemala, Cuba, Venezuela, Chile, or Brazil's?
So this transparency issue tends to distort perceptions. Not to mention that many are simply looking to find fault whereever they can with respect to the U.S. these days. Consider these rhetorical questions:
Where are China's crime statistics and detailed info on its cutbacks on freedom (for ex., treatment of homosexuals)? What is the Iranian or North Korean dissident press saying these days? What was the title of the last hostile Senate or House hearing, investigation, or other action against the executive in Russia, India, or China?
You can cite many, many problems in the U.S. these days, and you don't have to go much further than CNN or Google to get comprehensive, official data. You can download the text of Al Gore's MLK Day speech, alleging that the administration is breaking the law and should be dealt with. You can go to Michael Moore's page and get a collage of bitter criticism and dissent.
In how many other countries can you say this?
In any case, what your American friends are telling you, I suspect, mostly comes down to repeating anti-W. Bush "the sky is falling" hyperbole.
As for the U.S., it is alive and kicking and no signs of decline are apparent at all. |
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