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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:36 am Post subject: Chomsky, Stunted and Beckerson: |
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| Chomsky(revealing moniker):For the 18 millionth time in my life, "racism" is a pseudo-scientific doctrine(as is Marxism) that purports to "prove" a biological basis for the superiority of one race over another. It's a true bast*** child of Darwinism. How you get "racism" out of Moldy's remarks blows my mind. Stunted: What a refreshing,honest and objective perspective based on experience! About time! You just became the G. Orwell of this thread! Thank you! Beckerson:ah, it's been a while, eh? My reply... see Chomsky, above.... |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Native north americans |
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| chomsky wrote: |
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
I went to school with numerous Native and Inuit Canadians. They received free university, living allowances, subsidized housing and vehicles, tax-free status, optical care, medical care, and preferential treatment in summer and government jobs.
Where do I sign up to be oppressed and treated like beep?
Ken:> |
Ken, I'd suggest your local Hagwon. But would you really want the same conditions as most Canadian aboriginal peoples? You must also love them food stamps, Christian missionaries, and 3rd world Hep A, B, and C levels. I'm betting you had an experience on some rich oil-laced Alberta reserve, which is the exception to the rule not the same as say, Davis Inlet. In a way you are right to point out that poor whites are often ignored even in Canada but the 'preferential treatment' of a few government benefits pales in comparision to the 'we'd prefer it if you get the **** of our land, redskin or we'll shoot ya' treatment which constitutes one most the shameful episodes of Canadian history - and continues in other forms today. Leave your racism at the door, please. |
Why either or? Just eliminate free post-secondary education, opitical care, dentistry and all of that right now.
HTH |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:32 am Post subject: |
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HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDEX 2003
The HDI measures achievements in terms of life expectancy, educational attainment and adjusted real income.
1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Sweden
4 Australia
5 Netherlands
6 Belgium
7 United States
8 Canada
9 Japan
10 Switzerland
11 Denmark
12 Ireland
13 United Kingdom
14 Finland
15 Luxembourg
16 Austria
17 France
18 Germany
19 Spain
20 New Zealand
21 Italy
22 Israel
23 Portugal
24 Greece
25 Cyprus
26 Hong Kong,China (SAR)
27 Barbados
28 Singapore
29 Slovenia
30 Korea, Rep. of
31 Brunei Darussalam
32 Czech Republic
33 Malta
34 Argentina
35 Poland
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/presskit/HDR03_PKE_HDI.pdf |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:30 am Post subject: |
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[quote]For all its problems, I'm proud of my community. What utopia,free of racial tensions, are you from BTW?
Actually, I'm from Alberta. Yep, Keegstra country. And, really, my digs at Saskatoon qua Saskatoon were more ad hominem than anything else. You'll notice that the guy who wrote the Canadian Dimension article was from Saskatoon himself, so of course there are decent people everywhere. Mind you, Mosley, I doubt that you'd have much in common with that guy anyway.
As for the notion that the racism in Saskatoon was not institutionalized, I guess it depends what you mean by the word "institutionalized". Okay, so the Police chief himself wasn't giving the orders. But, the people who committed these crimes were on-duty cops(the police department is an institution, is it not?) and apparently felt quite at liberty to behave as they did. I don't think the average guy in Saskatoon would expect to be able to get away with what the cops thought they could get away with. If a bunch of racist cops in the Deep South circa 1928 decide to lynch a black man, can we dismiss the charge of "institutional violence" by simply pointing out that the sherriff himself did not give the orders? |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:26 pm Post subject: More Wildean wit from OTOH.... |
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Soooo...you like to use ad hominem remarks,eh? Highly revealing. Very clever (and insulting) bit about "decent people". I guess people are "decent" if they agree with you. I had the misfortune of once meeting the "writer" of the CD article. If lamenting the fall of the USSR, worshipping Castro and Col. Kaddaffy, and believing all evil in the world emanates from America makes you "decent", well then he's as "decent" as they come.
Well, I have to admit I thought you came from Hogtown. You are one atypical Albertan- right up there w/k.d. lang!!!
Alberta:the "U.S.A." of Canada
Saskatchewan: the "Cuba" of Canada
Guess which one Canadians flock to in search of opportunity?!!! |
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William Beckerson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Chomsky, Stunted and Beckerson: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| Beckerson:ah, it's been a while, eh? My reply... see Chomsky, above.... |
Beckerson is indeed a revealing moniker. Glad you picked up on it. The rest of your comment towards him holds not relevence to what I said.
There's more than enough mud slinging and red herrings being tossed on both sides of the political spectrum for you to claim purity because of your political leanings. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Mosley:
Well, sorry, I'm not psychic. I do not know every political opinion of every single writer I read. I called the guy "decent" based on his opposition to the racist policing practices in Saskatoon, practices which resulted in someone freezing to death, alone and unwanted, on the outskirts of town. I happen to think that a person's opposition to such state-sponsored brutality is as good a reason as any to call that person "decent". |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:34 pm Post subject: OTOH |
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| Well, what the cops did was stupid at best and despicable at worst. But "state-sponsored brutality"?! That belongs into the realm of conspiracy theories, which is very much the province of the Canadian Dimension, Council of Canadians, etc. Good Lord, what's the "payoff" of such a policy for the "state"? In any event, it's obvious we'll have to agree to disagree. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mosley:
Yeah, there was nothing state-sponsored about that policing practice. As we all know, policemen's salaries are paid by private donations. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject: Treat me like the beep that I am! |
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| Quote: |
| >Ken, I'd suggest your local Hagwon. But would you really want the same conditions as most Canadian aboriginal peoples? You must also love them food stamps, Christian missionaries, and 3rd world Hep A, B, and C levels. I'm betting you had an experience on some rich oil-laced Alberta reserve, which is the exception to the rule not the same as say, Davis Inlet. In a way you are right to point out that poor whites are often ignored even in Canada but the 'preferential treatment' of a few government benefits pales in comparision to the 'we'd prefer it if you get the **** of our land, redskin or we'll shoot ya' treatment which constitutes one most the shameful episodes of Canadian history - and continues in other forms today. Leave your racism at the door, please.< |
Yikes. I don't agree with you, Chomsky, but I hope your school doesn't resemble Davis Inlet.:>
My experiences are from living in three cities in Alberta, from living with my brother in BC, from visiting relatives in Sask/Manitoba, and from living five years in Newfoundland, where I had good friends from Labrador, in particular Sheshushi and Wabush. One was my roommate, who because of her Inuit status, had all the benefits I mentioned, and was given immediate placement in the extremely competitive social work faculty. Food stamps, yo' mama. No one forced her to stay in grim poverty in Labrador, and she didn't. Several of these guys were active in campus ministries. I don't recall any cartoonlike missionary hitting them with sticks.
I expose myself to yet more insults writing this. How did we drift so far from talking about our country's fall to #8? I find myself sitting in the middle, lamenting how our poor overtaxed, overregulated land has become so mean-spirited. And yet I don't think our record on native issues is as bad as it's been reported. Hear me out before you flame me--especially those of you who have never actually been to Canada.
Generally, the relationship between native Canadians and the early colonizers was quite good, as it was a business relationship. Fur traders relied on the natives for survival in the late 1600s and 1700s, and slowly built up ties built around fort life. Many French traders intermarried with the natives--these offspring are the Metis. We can distrust the motives of the missionaries all we like, but many gave their all to build schools and give aid to the natives. Our picture of natives crumbling under the big, mean church is a flawed one. Sometimes natives didn't convert, some manipulated the Jesuits, and others attacked mission workers. The Iroquios had a nasty habit of eating them (Eccles, 1961).
The relationship deteriorated in the 1800s as the beaver and buffalo ran out and permanent colonization began. American speculators and warring fur companies plied native groups with alcohol, and Ontario land speculators ignored native settlement lines (resulting in one Louis Riel). The situation of the natives in the 1870s was very bad as trade had collapsed and their food source (the bison) had largely disappeared.
The Canadian government granted large sections of land to the natives, along with special privileges such as tax-free status and aid packages. The motives were indeed mixed. Some of these lands were poor for farming, but at the same time, there was a genuine concern for the natives and a wish not to hide them away somewhere, but to give them land so that they might become settled farmers like the immigrants and eventually assimilate. We can debate the ethnocentricity of this thinking, but we can also easily find countries who were not nearly so concerned with doing the right thing.
I made my earlier remarks quite flippantly. But at the same time, when some of the posters on this forum claim that giving the first nations people lavish benefits and special treatment doesn't reflect how we really treat them--I fail to see the difference. I agree that Canada's native policy over the last century has been a failure. I'm less sure that blaming ourselves and throwing more money at the problem helps.
And personally, I refuse to feel guilty. I don't expect free everything from the Russians for persecuting my mother's ancestors in the 1870s in eastern Europe. I don't expect benefits from Italy because the Romans colonized my father's ancestors' lands in Germany in the third century. And so I don't feel I owe people now for mistakes the Canadians made in the 1860s. To me, singling out ethnic groups as deserving something and others as responsible for paying for it makes me a racist--not the reverse.
The Canadian elites have been very insistent in the last thirty years on labelling everyone as an oppressed minority in need of a special break--except for the taxpayer. As a result, the living standards of everyone have dropped as companies leave, debts climb, cutbacks hit, universities starve, and our best people leave (to teach in Korea:>). Our response so far has been to blame and spite the Americans, and this evasion in part explains our drop underneath the Americans--to number 8 and falling.
Ken:> http://keneckert.byus.net |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:07 pm Post subject: OTOH: once more.... |
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| A red-herring, because "state-sponsored" has a far greater implication. By your reasoning, a farmer who receives a government subsidy cheque and "celebrates" by going out and getting drunk and beating up a Native is engaging in "state-sponsored brutality". Or someone who's a civil servant (civilian) who does the same thing(drunk or sober). Or someone who gets his pogey check and follows suit. Ironically, in neo-Marxian theory, it's YOUR viewpoint that's wrong. For neo-Marxians nothing happens "by chance". The state serves a (capitalist,natch)ruling class by reinforcing the ideology of that class and maintains a social order that benefits the ruling class. So if the "state", represented by beat cops, uses violence it HAS TO BE FOR A (nefarious) PURPOSE! In other words, for the benefit of the rulers. It won't be of benefit to the cop:except when collective agreements kick in, the cop working on Tueday will be on the same pay-scale as he was on Monday regardless of whether or not he used violence against "enemies " of the ruling class the day before. So yeah, the masters of finance and capital , the big bourgeoisie, are shaking in their boots about the growing power of the Natives!! Better use the state to keep them down!! That theory's reasoning, of course, is about as sound as yours. The realm of the fantastic.... |
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chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: 10 years |
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| Stunted Wookie wrote: |
| I spent 10 years living on the rez back in Nova Scotia. I was the first non native to become a traditional drummer/ singer on the Mi'kmaq nation. I spoke on the nations behalf numerous times at province house..I was the hired speaker to present a report to the Kearns commission back in the 90's about these issues. what they seek they shall get... |
Your attitude exemplifies the problem - and the past clearly manifests itself in non-native people who are chosen to "speak on behalf" of native peoples for the endless government comissions - themselves massive make-work projects (not to mention money pits) for so-called "native experts" who are often rednecks with academic qualifications or 'experience'. Some of the most racist people in Canadian history were the indian agents who lived on the resrves and claimed intimate knowledge of the culture before they stabbed them in the back. Paternalism is alive and doing quite well. I'm sure your Mi'kmaq friends are thrilled you continue to speak so well for them.
| Stunted Wookie wrote: |
| The federal gov provides massive opportunities for FN...many choose not to accept it and have the woes me attitude while drinking Lysol...Yet if you want training in a trade, its paid for etc..... |
You seem to have a severe case of 'blame the victim". If you lived on the rez for so long, you should have come to understand some of the underlying reasons for the drug and booze problems there. ...Why shouldn't they be offered paid-for training in trades, isn't this one of the accepted routes by which they can eventually come to support themselves?
| Stunted Wookie wrote: |
| ..I don't think you can compare what the government used to do to what they do now..... |
While progress has undoubtedly been made in some areas (Inuit co-ops being a prime example) these are differences of degree only. Sure, some native bands have abused INAC benefits or oil dividends but many others have been left to rot. Remember, many non-native Canadians on welfare also abuse it while whining about the government or the natives who "get everything" - but I would never advocate across-the-board stoppage of welfare, EI, pensions, etc. for mainstream Canadians.
I think native individuals who abuse federal and provincial monies should, just like other Canadians, be investigated and prosecuted if necessary. Despite al the rosy talk from Ottawa these days Canada still has a dirty past to make up for, and should continue to pay until native health, eductaion, and self-sufficiency levels are on par with mainstream Canada. The evidence clearly shows these levels have clearly not been reached. More money should be invested in native run enterprises, to eventually wean them from the government payroll. Those who advocate cutting of government training monies to reduce dependence on government coffers fail to see the contradiction of their own reasoning. |
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chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Treat me like the beep that I am! |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Yikes. I don't agree with you, Chomsky, but I hope your school doesn't resemble Davis Inlet.:> |
Gawd no, it's much worse 
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| My experiences are from living in three cities in Alberta, from living with my brother in BC, from visiting relatives in Sask/Manitoba, and from living five years in Newfoundland, where I had good friends from Labrador, in particular Sheshushi and Wabush. One was my roommate, who because of her Inuit status, had all the benefits I mentioned, and was given immediate placement in the extremely competitive social work faculty. Food stamps, yo' mama. |
Thanks for the looooong (official version) high school aboriginal studies history lecture, but i've been to newfoundland and labrador, too. Note that Sheshatshiu isn't an Inuit ('Eskimo') community, it's an Innu (Naskapi-Monatgnais Indian) community.  Wabush is a 'white' mining town which has some great people and many others who rag on about native benefits.
Anyways, why shouldn't your native "friend' have been given an immediate placement in that social work faculty? Surely you'd agree that this would save the government some money by training an Innu (or was she Inuit?) social worker to work in an Innu community, even you must see the logic of that. That social work program is actually kind of (in) famous in Canada for producing a very high turnover rate of 'white' social work graduates who do time in native communities in Labrador, hoping to make a quick buck or cut their teeth, but who find they can't cut the culture shock of poverty, disease, alcoholism and health problems on a scale not imaginable in st. john's. the provincial government, not really interested in real change in thes places, does little to support these same social workers.
I'm not sure what your 'food stamps yo mamma' comment means, but there are many people in newfoundland and labrador, native and non-native, who would probably not be thrilled by 'mainlanders' making fun of their situation. Hopefully you are one of the elites you refer to, and have never had to use these to eat.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| No one forced her to stay in grim poverty in Labrador, and she didn't. Several of these guys were active in campus ministries. I don't recall any cartoonlike missionary hitting them with sticks. |
i'm sure you didn't. of course many native people in canada became christians but but this does not negate the fact that they were often coerced into it. for the innu it was more a carrot than a stick - they were settled and forced into the church-run education programs under threat of withholding of family allowance benefits if they refused to comply. here they were instructed in english and god. most innu now practice a form of animism/catholocism. however many many more Canadian native people were forced to abandon their religion, especially under the native residential school system (which only ceased to be in 1986). I refer you to some of the many works not reported in the mainstream media which discuss this in detail http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/2/35/index-e.html
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| I expose myself to yet more insults writing this. How did we drift so far from talking about our country's fall to #8? . |
I'm not sure. It probably had to do with some white guys ragging on canadian natives again.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Hear me out before you flame me--especially those of you who have never actually been to Canada.. |
Don't worry. I've been to the native communities you refer to. i'm sure you have, too. otherwise you wouldn't know so much, right? especially that 'skimo place, sheshatshiu.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Generally, the relationship between native Canadians and the early colonizers was quite good, as it was a business relationship. .. |
I think everybody would probably agree on this part. But the honeymoon didn't last as long as you allude to.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| I agree that Canada's native policy over the last century has been a failure. I'm less sure that blaming ourselves and throwing more money at the problem helps... |
who should we blame...the commies? the elites? oh, maybe the native people themselves? oh stupid me, you've already done that. we throw money at health, education, etc. to other canadians. so what would you suggest for the natives, 'labor camps'?
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| And personally, I refuse to feel guilty. I don't expect free everything from the Russians for persecuting my mother's ancestors in the 1870s in eastern Europe. I don't expect benefits from Italy because the Romans colonized my father's ancestors' lands in Germany in the third century. And so I don't feel I owe people now for mistakes the Canadians made in the 1860s. ... |
that's your decision. but you have no right to speak for canadian native peoples. this is not just ancient history - this is an ongoing situation. 3rd world poverty and disease rates are there NOW, and are a direct product of a historical process in many of these communities. there are many first nations people (some not so old, either) who have suffered and continue to suffer as a result of their 4th world status. so, sorry, that excuse doen't hold water with me. very few nazis ever felt guilty either, as witnessed at Nuremberg (an over-the-top example, but the point is the same).
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| The Canadian elites have been very insistent in the last thirty years on labelling everyone as an oppressed minority in need of a special break--except for the taxpayer. As a result, the living standards of everyone have dropped as companies leave, debts climb, cutbacks hit, universities starve, and our best people leave (to teach in Korea:>). ... |
hmmm, i'd suggest you read some linda mcquaig to better ascertain the actual (minimal) impact of canada's social safety net on the economy.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| To me, singling out ethnic groups as deserving something and others as responsible for paying for it makes me a racist--not the reverse.... |
I think you mean 'makes one a racist? if so, i would agree, but you miss the point that the native peoples stolen lands and resources have more than contibuted to the provincial and federal coffers over the centuries. and still do.
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| The Canadian elites have been very insistent in the last thirty years on labelling everyone as an oppressed minority in need of a special break--except for the taxpayer. As a result, the living standards of everyone have dropped as companies leave, debts climb, cutbacks hit, universities starve, and our best people leave (to teach in Korea:>). ... |
well it's great to be called one of the �lites' for a change, but i pay taxes, too and I have no problem with them being used to right past wrongs or to improve the lives of ANY canadian who has to live like that, red, white, black, yellow, whatever....don't you know treaty 8 has been overturned by ottawa and that natives must also pay taxes? .... soooooo, now native people in canada are responsible for you having to come to korea?.....right. |
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chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Chomsky, Stunted and Beckerson: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| Chomsky(revealing moniker):For the 18 millionth time in my life, "racism" is a pseudo-scientific doctrine(as is Marxism) that purports to "prove" a biological basis for the superiority of one race over another. It's a true bast*** child of Darwinism. How you get "racism" out of Moldy's remarks blows my mind. .... |
why yes, uh, that's correct but ....what's your point exactly? you must have excelled at buzzwordism (in grad skool, perhaps?)
how did i get racism out of his comments?...read again, this time slooooooooowly. if you have no luck, repeat until mind is no longer blown by 'heavy' statement.  |
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chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:12 am Post subject: Re: Chomsky, Stunted and Beckerson: |
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[quote="chomsky"]
| Mosley wrote: |
| Chomsky(revealing moniker):For the 18 millionth time in my life, "racism" is a pseudo-scientific doctrine(as is Marxism) that purports to "prove" a biological basis for the superiority of one race over another. It's a true bast*** child of Darwinism. How you get "racism" out of Moldy's remarks blows my mind. .... |
oh, sorry Mosley, i just saw the thread you started on "pinkos and peaceniks" and the iraq war. I mistook you for somebody who made informed decisions. my mistake. |
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