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HAMAS wins
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naughty puss wrote:


I find it hard to blame the hundreds of suicide bombings, use of child warfare and human shields, targetting of civilians, firefights against the palestinian authority and desecration of Jewish/christian sites within Palestine, on Israel rather than Hamas.

Where does their responsibility for their own behavior start, according to you?

The only rational spokesperson I've seen for their cause was an American they'd employed to present an articulate TV image.

Lets just look at todays events shall we?
"Hamas gunmen ambushed a Palestinian police patrol in the Gaza Strip early Saturday.One of the officers was shot in the head and remained in a coma"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

I'm sure the government of Palestine is safe in their sophisticated and responsible hands.


Reading comprehension difficulties? Where did I say that Hamas are not responsible for their attrocities? Find me the part/parts of my post where I express that sentiment. Nautilus, if I pay you to kill another person, you are still responsible for that killing even if I am complicit in the act. However, neither can I claim to be an innocent bystander.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting perspective on Hamas, this time from an Israeli writer: Gabriel Ash.

It makes for quite interesting reading. [To make for easier reading, I've bolded key points. I've further taken the liberty of bolding bright blue those parts which highlight the West's double standards].

________________________________________________________________________________________________
Bravo Abbas! Bravo Hamas!


Elections results in the Occupied Territories show that Fatah has lost its majority in the Palestinian parliament by a stunningly large margin. This is a transformational event with lasting geopolitical importance, for Hamas and Fatah, for Palestinians and Israelis, and for the world.

Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah and head of the make-believe Palestinian ��government��, was never an inspiring figure. Palestine today is still at a stage that requires a liberation movement. Yet Abbas, even more than Arafat before him, bought into the Western conceit that he was a head of state in the making. Rather than leading the struggle for liberation, Abbas focused on being a technocrat to satisfy the rhetorical needs of the EU and the US who funded him. In his speeches, he sometimes channeled the words dictated to him by his donors more than the aspirations of his constituents. His handling of his greatest challenge as a politician -- restoring cohesion and a sense of purpose to Fatah -- was mediocre. The necessary takeover of Fatah by the younger generation of leaders is happening, but far from smoothly, and older figures widely perceived as corrupt and ineffectual continue to cling to power. Finally, Abbas has staked his grand strategy on the continuation of Oslo and a negotiated peace with Israel. On that front he has achieved nothing; although, to be fair, it wasn��t his fault.

Nevertheless, Abbas is about to make history, and leave his people and the whole region an inspiring gift. Abbas is overseeing the first grand democratic defeat of an Arab leader in a popular election. If he steps down as he has promised to do, he will have completed an achievement without parallel. Let it be noticed that losing was not as easy as it may seem. Abbas had to overcome and ignore the persistent calls within his own party to postpone the elections. He had to contend with a grand chorus of Israeli, US and EU voices calling on him to undermine the democratic process by excluding Hamas. He had opportunities aplenty to cave in. He did not. Palestinians, not the least because of their poverty and years of stubborn resistance, have a more democratic culture than the rest of the Middle East. Nevertheless, it is to Abbas�� credit that he accepted and expressed this democratic spirit. It is a rare leader anywhere, and rarer still in the Middle East, who doesn��t imagine himself God��s gift to his nation. For defending the integrity of this fragile democratic exercise even as it went against him Abbas deserves an unqualified Bravo.

Hamas is the big winner of the elections. It too deserves a Bravo. (From reading the mainstream Western media, one gets the impression that the only interesting question is when Hamas will recognize Israel and renounce violence. Our ��objective�� journalists cannot possibly adopt a perspective other than that of the Israeli state. Do send them a nice card; their ��profession�� is the oldest in the world. I will not bore you with the same question. I hope Hamas does what Palestinians expect them to do and nothing else -- lead the fight for liberty and dignity.)

For many years now Hamas has been at the forefront of the struggle for Palestinian liberation. While far from being alone, Hamas recognized early that Oslo was a cul-de-sac and a fraud. For better or for worse -- and the jury is still out -- Hamas played a crucial role in the decision to meet the militarized Israeli repression of the second intifada with arms. Hamas was early to adopt the tactic of suicide attacks. Thanks to the usual double standard, these are viewed in the West as more reprehensible than the much more lethal weapons routinely used by Israel. Fatefully, Hamas took a hard line on the use of suicide attacks, refusing to accept distinctions others proposed, such as between civilian and military targets, or between targets inside the Occupied Territories and those in pre-67 Israel. While I believe this was Hamas�� biggest mistake and a missed opportunity to drive a wedge between Israel��s bellicose leadership and less bellicose public, Hamas�� position reflected significant segments of Palestinian public opinion and was neither less nor more immoral than Israel��s military practices.

Crucial to its current electoral success is Hamas�� recognition that resistance is more than guns. Since its inception, Hamas has operated mosques, schools, clinics and charities. It has made the survival and maintenance of Palestinian society a major priority, providing vital services in an economic environment that got bleaker by the day. Despite not having access to the larger sums and apparently useless expertise that the PA received from the US and the EU, Hamas is widely recognized to have done a better job than the PA as a provider of services. That is no small success and reflects well on the qualities of Hamas�� leaders and cadres. Beyond that, it demonstrates Hamas ability to maintain a spirit of dedication and personal integrity.

Public rejection of corruption is no doubt a major explanation for the rise of Hamas. But so is religion. Palestinian society has turned increasingly to religion in response to the hardships of daily life under Israeli occupation. At the same time, it is hard not to credit the religious bond and commitment for Hamas�� strength and ability to resist the lure of corruption. It is fashionable in the West, especially at the center and left of the political discourse, to compare ��our fundamentalists with theirs.�� While there is truth in that comparison, it misses quite a lot. ��Our fundamentalists,�� from George Bush to Pat Robertson, are fundamentally corrupt. Their religion is a racket. On the Muslim side the opposite seems often to be the case. Far from being a shakedown, religion over there is an antidote to corruption. Karl Marx famously dismissed religion as ��Opium for the masses.�� In the Middle East it is more like amphetamines. It keeps people going past the end of exhaustion and despair.

While Palestinian society turned more religious, Hamas turned more ecumenical. Palestinian parliamentarian Hanan Ashrawi expressed fear that ��militants will now impose their fundamentalist social agenda and lead the Palestinians into international isolation.�� That is a distinct and worrying possibility, but it is not set in stone. In these elections the candidates for Hamas�� new political party ��Reform and Change�� included women, Christians, and moderates. Hamas is now a larger political tent of Palestinian nationalism with a strong religious orientation; it encompasses radicals, moderates and conservatives with a variety of perspectives. Tensions between democratic and religious authority will continue to exist, and narrow fundamentalist tendencies are clearly present. But there is also hope that the current openness will hold and that Hamas will continue to develop toward increased democracy and inclusiveness.

With regards to the national struggle, which understandably casts a large shadow, Hamas has staked two major differences from Fatah. These differences underscore the threat that the victory of Hamas poses to the West��s colonial strategies.

Hamas maintains it will continue to defend armed struggle as a legitimate option. For now, Hamas is abstaining from violence, although the cease-fire agreed in Cairo had officially expired. It is quite possible that Hamas will continue to favor peaceful means. But it refuses to cave in to pressure and maintains the right to evaluate its strategies from a Palestinian rather than Western perspective. American, Israeli and European officials claim they will not talk to Hamas as long as it doesn��t renounce violence. As long as these hypocrites don��t renounce violence themselves, they have zero moral authority. Hamas deserves credit for refusing to take moral guidance from self-righteous bullies.

Hamas is also refusing to recognize Israel and negotiate on the basis of Oslo and the roadmap. Instead Hamas candidates have outlined a strategy of independence, strengthening Palestinian society and resistance and advancing national goals without relying on Israeli and international approval. Hamas calls this option ��ignoring Israel.��

In the current international context, such a strategy is dangerous but not without sense. While Israel demands to be recognized, it is clearly unwilling to recognize minimal Palestinian demands. Both the White House and the Democrats -- ��progressive�� such as Barack Obama and regressive like Clinton and Lieberman -- are parroting Israel like a second grade pupil reading from My Pet Goat. The EU seems mostly interested in helping the US play a ��good cop, bad cop�� routine. There will be a price to pay, but Hamas seems to think the West has currently little to offer Palestinians beyond money to lubricate the wheels of corruption. There is precious little evidence to prove them wrong.

As Hamas handles the pressure of assuming power, either in a coalition with Fatah or alone, it is possible that these two principles will be watered down significantly. The price for consistency may be too high, especially in lost foreign assistance. Palestinians today survive on foreign charity (or, one could rephrase that as saying that the Israeli occupation is financed by the EU and the US)***<see below>. Unless Hamas can hook up new donors to replace the EU and US, it may be willing to compromise rather than face a popular backlash. I hope that Hamas finds creative ways to subvert this new phase of Western colonialism. But realistically, the challenge is enormous.

Hamas is today an important face of the Palestinian struggle for liberty, equality and justice. It is the face chosen by the majority of the Palestinian public in the Occupied Territories in clear defiance of Western colonialism. With its new power and old habits, Hamas will have plenty of opportunities to go wrong. However, as long as it maintains its commitment to democracy and strives to advance the rights of all Palestinians to full human dignity, Hamas can be a force for good.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

***. What Ash is refering to here is the US and EU have in effect subsidised Israel's occupation. There is a school of thought that holds that EU and US donations to the Palestinian enable Israel's continuing occupation. By international law, an occupying power is legally responsible for the welfare of the occupied people. Israel has largely got away with paying this cost due to the subsidies for the international communty. If the EU withdraw funds, Israel would be faced with enormous expenses. And along those lines, if the US stopped funding Israel, their costly expansion of settlements in the West Bank would collapse.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush, addressing two international flash points, said Monday he will not support a Palestinian government made up of Hamas and that the United States is trying to build a united front to stop Iran's nuclear program.

"The Hamas party has made it clear that they do not support the right of Israel," Bush said after meeting with his Cabinet. "And I have made it clear that so long as that's their policy, that we will not support a Palestinian government made up of Hamas."

Bush said that Hamas, which won a decisive majority in last week's Palestinian legislative elections, must get rid of its arms and disavow terrorism.

Bush spoke amid discouraging reports regarding Iran, another Mideast trouble spot. Talks between Tehran and European nations in Belgium appeared to make little progress. John Sawers, a senior British official at the talks, said that Iran offered nothing new in its approach in the meeting, which was not a formal negotiating session.

Bush said an option now is for the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council -- the United States, Britain, France, Russia and China -- to work together to bring the case to the full Council. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was joining foreign ministers from the four other members and Germany in London Monday night.

"And we're going to continue to work with our friends and allies to present a united front to the Iranians," Bush said. "And the message is: Give up your nuclear weapons ambitions. The good news is, most of the world recognizes that Iran being the nontransparent society that it is, a government that had violated IAEA rules, is one that cannot be trusted with technology that could enable it to develop a nuclear weapon."

Bush met with his Cabinet ahead of Tuesday night's State of the Union address. In the speech, he said, he will talk about how the Iranian people should live in freedom and discuss plans for health care, energy and education.

As has now become traditional immediately following the State of the Union address, Bush is taking his proposals on the road in the days afterward. He plans a speech a week for the next four weeks so that he can talk in more detail about domestic initiatives he introduces on Tuesday. This kicks off with an appearance Thursday in Maplewood, Minnesota, said White House press secretary Scott McClellan.

"The president is going to be traveling the country to speak directly to the American people," McClellan said. "It will be an opportunity for the president to lay out in greater detail his 2006 agenda."

Separately, aides have planned for the president to deliver one speech through February on the war on terror and Iraq.

Bush also is traveling this week to Nashville, Tennessee, Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Dallas for other events.

McClellan said the State of the Union address has now gone through about two dozen drafts. The president plans his final practice session with the remarks later Monday in the White House's Family Theater.

But aides are remaining mum about the more substantive aspects of the speech, even declining to reveal who will sit with the first lady in the House gallery as living representatives of the president's message.

"We'll keep you on the edge of your seat a little bit longer," McClellan said.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/30/bush.ap/index.html
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LONDON, England (CNN) -- The international community is willing to provide crucial aid to Palestinians if the new Hamas-led government commits to non-violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist and accepts current Mideast peace agreements, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan has said.

Annan made the statement Monday at the end of a meeting of the Mideast Quartet, composed of the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations.

He described the session as a "very useful and constructive" meeting to discuss the rise of Hamas -- long considered a terrorist organization by the U.S. EU and Israel -- in Palestinian politics...

Hamas has carried out numerous terrorist attacks that have killed hundreds of Israelis over the years, and its charter calls for the destruction of Israel. The international community has demanded the charter be changed -- something the organization has refused to do.

"The Hamas Party has made it clear that they do not support the right of Israel to exist," U.S. President George W. Bush told reporters in Washington on Monday.

"And I have made it clear, so long as that's their policy, that we will not support a Palestinian government made up of Hamas..."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/30/hamas.funding/index.html
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Bird wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Even if we take your site at its word and assume it is the truth, you will see that Israel funded Hamas in order to infiltrate the group and identify dangerous terrorists. Plus in the beginnings the group was moderate. According to this article it did not repress Islamic groups and although "The group had always embraced the doctrine of armed struggle, but the doctrine had not been practised.."

It is hardly suprising that Israel would fund such a moderate-seeming group as a counterbalance. Surrounded by hostile states, Israel would naturally seek to protect itself by attempting to influence groups that on the surface appeared moderate. It can hardly be held to blame for the fact that later Hamas was seized by hardliners.

.


(1) I'm sorry to burst your little bubble, but the Israelis are not so naiive as you would wish to have it. The Israeli government continued to knowingly fund and cultivate Hamas long after it could be claimed that they were a 'moderate-seeming group.' Their aim was to create division among the Palestinians and undermine the PLO.

TUM wrote:
Nor (again according to your site) was Israel the only supporter. Support also came from the "oil-producing states" a quote from the site you so kindly provided


(2) So what? It's well known that Arabs have funded Hamas. Jordan (a nation which colluded with Israel, at its inception in 1948, to seize large tracts of Palestinian territory) in particular considered Arafat a threat. This is not news and it doesn't change the fact that certain elements in Israel also very much appreciated the rise of Hamas.

[edited for typos]


(Numbers are mine)

1. Proof please? Dates? ANYTHING other than your unsupported statement? Wikepedia points out that Hamas was created in 1987 and two years later Israel "forbid Hamas" and imprisoned its founder. Neither forbidding Hamas or imprisoning its founder seem like support for Hamas. Sure they may have encouraged it as long as it was moderate. But if you are seriously suggesting they continued to fund it even after it started attacking Israel, well....all I can say is Rolling Eyes

2. Again so what? That was when Hamas was a moderate group.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy Carter: Give Hamas a chance
Former president says U.S. should not cut off aid to Palestinians

Thursday, February 2, 2006 Posted: 0413 GMT (1213 HKT)


Jimmy Carter on Larry King Live (4:35)

(CNN) -- Hamas deserves to be recognized by the international community, and despite the group's militant history, there is a chance the soon-to-be Palestinian leaders could turn away from violence, former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/01/carter.hamas/index.html
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