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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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An accident? Move on?
The guys in the car are driving to work and getting shot at by people who are supposed to be securing the area!
There were 5 people in a diplomatic car!
How many suicide bombers are usually in car?
I don't know the answer but I'd be surprised to hear that it has ever been more than two and would be willing to bet it has never been 4 or more.
So these guys are complaining because their diplomatic car got shot up for no good reason in the most secure part of I raq by people who are supposed to be protecting them and then the hear a press release which says no mistakes were made it was all S.O.P.
I guess those Italians who got shot were just a bunch of whiners and their relatives should all just shut up and move on because sht happens.
None of us should worry about anything because we can't change it, it's bound to happen again, so why worry? Why waste time thinking about it?
You guys have a lot in common with Muslim fundamentalists- insh'allah. Everything is as God wills.
Cheeba, maybe one day you'll see how idiotic that kind of attitude is (but I doubt it). |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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No, Bulsajo. No one is saying what you suggest at the end of your post.
When police or security forces are confronted with a "fire/don't fire" decision, particularly with respect to potential or suspected suicide bombers, they have less time to assess the situation than you would hold them accountable for.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheeba
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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7:30pm, oh I assumed you were in Korea teaching. My bad. OCIPEP (Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Emergency Preparedness) - now that I had to Google. Only a Canadian bureaucracy would invent such a tortured acronym. DFAIT? Wow, a cursory glance at any Globe and Mail would lead to that. Easily angred and also easily impressed. Insallah, shit happens, yes I now a fundamentalist, that's why suicide bombers wear shirts saying shit happens. 
One has to understood that Bulsajo probably prepared a Form 176-FT on this exact situation once. According to the latest reports they were parked on the other side of the road and the guy winged two shots into them. If you really want to read about ugly friendly fire incidents, try reading about WWII. Despite all your invective Bulsajo I harbour no ill will towards you. |
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laconic2
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Wonderful World of ESL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Why? |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
An accident? Move on?
The guys in the car are driving to work and getting shot at by people who are supposed to be securing the area!
There were 5 people in a diplomatic car!
How many suicide bombers are usually in car?
I don't know the answer but I'd be surprised to hear that it has ever been more than two and would be willing to bet it has never been 4 or more.
So these guys are complaining because their diplomatic car got shot up for no good reason in the most secure part of I raq by people who are supposed to be protecting them and then the hear a press release which says no mistakes were made it was all S.O.P.
I guess those Italians who got shot were just a bunch of whiners and their relatives should all just shut up and move on because sht happens.
None of us should worry about anything because we can't change it, it's bound to happen again, so why worry? Why waste time thinking about it?
You guys have a lot in common with Muslim fundamentalists- insh'allah. Everything is as God wills.
Cheeba, maybe one day you'll see how idiotic that kind of attitude is (but I doubt it). |
What identified it as a "diplomatic car?" The "Canadian flag symbol on the dash?" All people displaying a "Canadian flag symbol on the dash" are ipso facto diplomats? All Canadians are diplomats?
Why doesn't Canada have a military unit equipped with armored vehicles on the ground in Baghdad to transport its diplomatic staff to and from work?
Saving money for the icebreakers? 
Last edited by laconic2 on Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cheeba wrote: |
| Despite all your invective Bulsajo I harbour no ill will towards you. |
Fine. It doesn't change the fact that I have the same level of respect for you now as when you first entered this thread: zero.
Have a nice day at the hakwon. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
No, Bulsajo. No one is saying what you suggest at the end of your post.
When police or security forces are confronted with a "fire/don't fire" decision, particularly with respect to potential or suspected suicide bombers, they have less time to assess the situation than you would hold them accountable for. |
Not true. Not at all. Go back and read what I have consistently been saying here in this thread. I've made it quite clear a number of times it's not the judgement call made at the time but the apparent lack but the assessment afterwards.
Saying 'we did everything right shut up you must be wrong' isn't the best way to deal with this situation (I'm not saying you in particular are saying that, Gopher, but that's the attitude of those people who are unhappy with me bringing this incident up. You know from our past discussions that I am not a knee-jerk nationalist, nor am I anti-US military, or anti-military, or part of what Joo calls 'the peace movement'). I'm thinking that if guys doing convoy guard duty in the Bagdad's Green Zone can't tell the difference between a suicde bomber trying to meet his maker and a car full of diplomats, then we have serious problems. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Why? |
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| laconic2 wrote: |
What identified it as a "diplomatic car?" The "Canadian flag symbol on the dash?" All people displaying a "Canadian flag symbol on the dash" are ipso facto diplomats? All Canadians are diplomats? |
The internet is a great tool, all you have to do is use it. I read at least one report (Reuters I believe) which said that the car was a staff car with the appropriate flags. But 5 guys in a sedan in the Green Zone with a Maple Leaf displayed on the dash? Certainly not the same as a crazed guy in a dish dasha and katfan barrelling a half-ton towards you, now is it?
| Quote: |
| Why doesn't Canada have a military unit equipped with armored vehicles on the ground in Baghdad to transport its diplomatic staff to and from work? |
I don't know- why don't they laconic?
| Quote: |
| Saving money for the icebreakers? |
ha ha.
Well, I could go on all night like this because this is something I feel very strongly about-
but I won't.
Goodnight.
Last edited by Bulsajo on Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheeba
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hakwon, hah never worked in one thank you, currently in Ontario so that might be difficult. Try to keep your aggression contained at work, it won't lead to promotions. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| ...if guys doing convoy guard duty in the Bagdad's Green Zone can't tell the difference between a suicde bomber trying to meet his maker and a car full of diplomats, then we have serious problems. |
Looks like you just summarized the situation on the ground in Iraq rather nicely.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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laconic2
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Wonderful World of ESL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Why? |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| laconic2 wrote: |
What identified it as a "diplomatic car?" The "Canadian flag symbol on the dash?" All people displaying a "Canadian flag symbol on the dash" are ipso facto diplomats? All Canadians are diplomats? |
The internet is a great tool, all you have to do is use it. I read at least one report (Reuters I believe) which said that the car was a staff car with the appropriate flags. But 5 guys in a sedan in the Green Zone with a Maple Leaf displayed on the dash? Certainly not the same as a crazed guy in a dish dasha and katfan barrelling a half-ton towards you, now is it?
| Quote: |
| Why doesn't Canada have a military unit equipped with armored vehicles on the ground in Baghdad to transport its diplomatic staff to and from work? |
I don't know- why don't they laconic?
| Quote: |
| Saving money for the icebreakers? |
ha ha.
Well, I could go on all night like this because this is something I feel very strongly about-
but I won't.
Goodnight. |
Believing everything you read on the Internet is the same as believing that some people who want to kill you in Baghdad could not lose their dish dashas and katfans, get a car, some western clothes, a Canadian flag and attempt to penetrate the security perimeter of your convoy.
Hey, the only reason I can come up with for the Canadian military not having an armored unit in Baghdad to protect its diplomats is they may be attempting to save money for icebreakers.
Do you have another?  |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Your understanding of the situation- at least as far as you have indicated in this thread- is such that yes, you are hopeless. |
Your blatant disregard for the timeline of events, admitted perspective of the people in the car, and general facts of the case show that you are clueless about what happened.
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| It's pointless to debate your so obviously flawed opinions... |
 You are a twit. My opinions are flawed because they are not your opinions.
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| ...but I will say this much to you- there are a lot of guys over in Iraq, guys who don't want to be there. guys who have every reason to be nervous and jumpy as hell. Guys who thought they were signing up for one weekend a month. |
Indeed there are, which is why the people in that car should have been paying careful attention to what was happening.
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| It is hubris of the worst sort to assume that they never make mistakes, that they are never wrong. |
What is worse is assuming that they always make mistakes, and can do no right.
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| It took a lot of guts to speak up about this incident, and they have nothing to gain in doing so except the wish not have such an incident happen again. |
Why did it take guts? Are you saying that everry Canadian that speaks out against the U.S. military is a brave soul? I think not. The people in the car made a mistake and needed an excuse for what happened. Placing the blame on the American military was just natural for the people in the car. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
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| He was intelligent, well-read, not a big fan of Bush, and was accidentally killed by friendly fire. Sounds pretty heroic to me, |
Prime example right here....how heroic is it to get killed by your own guys? Now if you'd put a set of eyes in there it would be obvious that you were being sarcastic, because no sane person thinks being shot by your own teammates is 'heroic'. |
Alright, Grotto. Since you obviously just give posts a cursory glance, let me add in the part of this post that you left out.
| Pligganease wrote: |
You mean the football player who gave up a multi-million dollar contract in the NFL to join the Army... (This is where you sampled my post) ...regardless of the cause of his demise. The fact that he did what he did was the reason he was a hero.
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Did you catch that? One more time for you...
| Pligganease wrote: |
| The fact that he did what he did was the reason he was a hero. |
Get it that time? Being killed by friendly fire isn't what made him a hero. Going to fight did. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Bulsajo wrote:
...but I will say this much to you- there are a lot of guys over in Iraq, guys who don't want to be there. guys who have every reason to be nervous and jumpy as hell. Guys who thought they were signing up for one weekend a month.
piggy wrote:
Indeed there are, which is why the people in that car should have been paying careful attention to what was happening. |
Cuts both ways. If the soldiers hadnt been overly trigger happy this situation wouldnt have happened.
I've been watching the news and the situation seems that the American convoy had pulled off the left hand side of the road and were situated behind a security barrier. The Canadian diplomat car was travelling on the far right side of the road. The tail end humvee of the American convoy was pretty much behind the barrier and they fired 3 shots at the car. They were aiming at the engine block and were pretty good shots.
BUT
The Americans were pulled off of the road, were behind a protective barrier where the Canadians would not have been able to clearly see any 'warning gestures'. Sorry buddy but if your convoy leaves the road and parks behind a barrier does that mean all other traffic must now stop? If the US army is going to start changing the rules perhaps they should communicate them to their allies before shooting at them! And if they do shoot at them.....then they should have the manners to apologise.
Having reactionaries screaming that "it was justified" "Its a war zone" is just stupid in the extreme.
Piggy what exactly is 'heroic' about going to another country to kill people? I guess you could say, by your reasoning, that all soldiers who go to other countries are heroes....if thats what you're saying then I'm not really sure whether or not I agree or disagree with you.
Getting killed sure doesnt make one heroic.
An example of a hero is that Canadian medic who after being severely wounded by the roadside device still managed to administer first aid to his comrades in arms. Thats heroic!
Standing around getting shot or being blown up is just plain bad luck! |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
Bush went to Yale. Where did Harper go? Bush is not a moron. He's just not as smart as any other U.S. president ever. 
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WTF does Harper have to do with this incident?!?
Not a damned thing! |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
| That you're from a country who elected a moron as president?(not that we make any claims about our elected officials but at least they have some intelligence) |
Disclaimer: Not a Bush fan here. Din't vote for him.
Bush went to Yale. Where did Harper go? Bush is not a moron. He's just not as smart as any other U.S. president ever. |
That was a response to Grotto's general statement about the stupidity of Americans. You're right, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. I have no right to direct comments to anyone on this thread except you, and I apologize for that.
Still though, the fact that you were still sitting on your horse after saying that didn't keep you from saying this...
| Bulsajo wrote: |
From Harper's bio on wikipedia-
"He attended Richview Collegiate Institute, a high school in Metro Toronto's West End. Harper was an 'A+' student with several marks continually close to 100%. He graduated in 1978 as the top student of his graduating year, winning his school's gold medal for having the highest grade-point average. Harper briefly studied at the University of Toronto before travelling to Edmonton where he found employment in the oil and gas industry of Alberta as a computer programmer in his early twenties. He later attended the University of Calgary, receiving a Masters degree in economics." |
Gosh, how low you've stooped...
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Just one (1) example of how you don't have a clue about this story- you've just turned off your mind (i.e. stuck your head up your arse) and gone onto "everyone hates America, especially those Canadians, so I must defend everything America does without question" autopilot. |
And this is just one example of how you refuse to see whatever doesn't fit into your already drawn conclusion.
It's really ignorant of you to make the claim that people who defend America on a regular basis have their head in their arse, while those that seek only to demean the U.S. are performing some enlightened function.
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Oh but BBE says that you're taking the piss out of me, so at least you've got that going for you (but personally I'd pass on feeling smug over a backhanded compliment like that) |
Isn't it true?
EDIT: I removed some derrogatory words and phrases because they aren't true.
Last edited by Pligganease on Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Cuts both ways. If the soldiers hadnt been overly trigger happy this situation wouldnt have happened. |
I think that we should both agree that we are both going down "partisan" lines here...
| Grotto wrote: |
| I've been watching the news and the situation seems that the American convoy had pulled off the left hand side of the road and were situated behind a security barrier. The Canadian diplomat car was travelling on the far right side of the road. The tail end humvee of the American convoy was pretty much behind the barrier and they fired 3 shots at the car. They were aiming at the engine block and were pretty good shots. |
Which is one of the reasons that I believe it was a legitimate warning shot.
| Grotto wrote: |
BUT
The Americans were pulled off of the road, were behind a protective barrier where the Canadians would not have been able to clearly see any 'warning gestures'. Sorry buddy but if your convoy leaves the road and parks behind a barrier does that mean all other traffic must now stop? If the US army is going to start changing the rules perhaps they should communicate them to their allies before shooting at them! And if they do shoot at them.....then they should have the manners to apologise. |
Granted. But, because we weren't there, we have no idea what was visible, what happened, or who was at fault. You guys are pointing the finger at the Americans just as adamantly as I am at the Canadians. You aren't any more enlightened than I am.
| Grotto wrote: |
| Having reactionaries screaming that "it was justified" "Its a war zone" is just stupid in the extreme. |
And having the opposite reactions is equally stupid.
| Grotto wrote: |
Piggy what exactly is 'heroic' about going to another country to kill people? I guess you could say, by your reasoning, that all soldiers who go to other countries are heroes....if thats what you're saying then I'm not really sure whether or not I agree or disagree with you.
Getting killed sure doesn't make one heroic. |
Making the supreme sacrifice for your country or another country is indeed heroic, in my opinion.
Getting killed sure does make one heroic.
| Grotto wrote: |
| An example of a hero is that Canadian medic who after being severely wounded by the roadside device still managed to administer first aid to his comrades in arms. Thats heroic! |
Indeed it is.
| Grotto wrote: |
| Standing around getting shot or being blown up is just plain bad luck! |
Indeed, unless it happens when you are in a warzone in the service of your country. |
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