|
Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Dodgy Al
Joined: 15 May 2004 Location: Seoul
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting debate. I'm curious to know if the majority of people who are against teaching cursive, can actually write it.
English is a beautiful language, and cursive writing really compliments its natural rhythym.
It would be very sad if it went the way of the dodo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004 Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
I cannot believe that on a board primarily for English teachers there is a debate - apparently serious - about the use of joined-up writing.
Ker-iste, I hope nobody's watching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Njord

Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Location: South Korea
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Demonicat wrote: |
| I will always prefer print to cursive. Reason being that I am more concerned with the speed that others can read my writing (professional writing, boards, reports, etc), then I am in the speed at which I place it on paper. |
This is a good point. If you are writing for yourself, then feel free to scribble anything you like. If you are writing for someone else, the reader should be your first concern. The problem with cursive is not just that it is inherently more difficult to read. Since the 1960's it has not been standardized from one country to another or even from one school to another. In addition, many people feel the need to devise their own cursive script for personal use.
I happen to be able to read and write in cursive, albeit rather slowly. Since fifth grade I have been required to write in cursive once: a one-sentence statement on the SAT to the effect that I did not cheat. It is also handy for signatures and bank checks, but not necessary. In other words, one can function nearly perfectly in English without using cursive. And you think this is worth the time of EFL students who struggle to hold a basic conversation?
A typical United States curriculum devotes thirty minutes or more, every day of one school year to studying cursive. Here are my suggestions for how to better use this time:
Penmanship: Rather than teaching students to write poorly in two systems, why not teach them to write legibly in one? It is very frustrating trying to decipher illegible handwriting.
Keyboarding: This is how most people write, most of the time. This is a good thing because it is the fastest (a competent typist can write as fast as they think) and the easiest to read. It is also fast and easy to learn.
At this point, most arguments fall back on the supposed benefits of learning cursive: improved symbolic reasoning, discipline, beauty, and learning the ��flow�� of language. Surely these can be better taught in other contexts such as math, art, and creative writing classes.
There remains the argument that students should learn cursive in order to read it. This is circular. In any case, it would take far less time to teach students to read cursive than it takes to teach them to write it.
None of this is to suggest that I think learning cursive is worthless. Indeed, I think students who are so motivated should be encouraged to learn. But to require all students to spend such an enormous amount of class time learning something of marginal practical and intellectual value seems a waste to me.
P.S. I know my view is a minority one in this community. I also know that this is an emotional issue for some people. (Actually, I don��t really understand why this is.) I��m interested in your arguments but not your vitriol.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
justagirl

Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Location: Cheonan/Portland
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I've been in a 3rd grade classroom all year and it's THE year to learn cursive. We started the practice worksheets in January. Starting next month, my teacher won't accept anything that isn't written in cursive...but I must also say that she didn't teach them the correct way to do it (she is okay with them just connecting letters together with slanted lines...MY cursive teacher would have tossed my paper back in my face if I'd tried that!) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cypher
Joined: 08 Nov 2003
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is cursive dead? Are you serious? I cannot say I know anyone who doesn't know how to write cursive. Do some people not know how to or write (or don't want to write in) correct, proper, perfect grade 3 cursive anymore? Sure. If I think about it, I can write a Q or a Z the proper way, but I don't. That's the thing about cursive, I don't have to think about it.
As for bringing cursive into the esl classroom, if the students are interested in it and it makes them more interested in english, then I think it's a good idea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dodgy Al
Joined: 15 May 2004 Location: Seoul
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
wangja, why do you find it so hard to believe that that on a board primarily for English teachers, there is a discussion about an aspect of the English language.
maybe my use of the word 'debate' was a little strong, but really, if you don't have anything meaningful to add, why add anything? just a thought... perhaps it's a slow week for hot topics!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Njord

Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Location: South Korea
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ajgeddes wrote: |
| Not to be insulting to anybody, but if I met an English person who didn't know how to write in cursive, I would think they are uneducated idiots. Everybody learns to write (vs. print) when they are in grade 2, 3, or 4. I also learned how to multiply in grade 2, and I still remember how to do that as well. |
Ahh, but do you still remember how to do long division by hand? I think most people learn this in 4th or 5th grade and I bet that most forget before they graduate high school. I hope this does not make all of them uneducated idiots.
Edit: I don't think your choice of pronoun makes you an uneducated idiot either.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gorgias
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The little bit higher level kids find cursive interesting and fun. It's pretty obvious and not very hard to learn. It is never in a text I've taught, but it seems like an obvious thing to at least touch on. I showed a few classes some letters my grandmother had written to me, they seemed to be rather facinated by it. Quite a few kids can do it after seeing it once, as soon as they see what capital J, F, Q and so on are. Certainly, as some other's have mentioned, I'd be surprised if someone I worked with couldn't use cursive; I'm curious now so will investigate my co-workers on Monday. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ajgeddes

Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Location: Yongsan
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
ajgeddes wrote:
Not to be insulting to anybody, but if I met an English person who didn't know how to write in cursive, I would think they are uneducated idiots. Everybody learns to write (vs. print) when they are in grade 2, 3, or 4. I also learned how to multiply in grade 2, and I still remember how to do that as well.
Ahh, but do you still remember how to do long division by hand? I think most people learn this in 4th or 5th grade and I bet that most forget before they graduate high school. I hope this does not make all of them uneducated idiots.
Edit: I don't think your choice of pronoun makes you an uneducated idiot either. |
If I met an English person who didn't know how to write in cursive I would think they are an idiot.
I can honestly say, I would be stunned if I met a person, especially one who finished university and teaches the English language, who did NOT know how to write in cursive.
That would be like a math teacher not knowing long division.
As well, YES, I do remember how to do long division. I also think that drawing comparisons to the two is a bit of a stretch.
Using cursive is very much a common form of writing, year after year and even in daily life.
I stand by what I say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Big Mac
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
|
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
I used to think the same thing as the previous poster: if you can't write in cursive, you are an uneducated idiot. But then when I started looking around I realized that it is not nearly as commonplace as I once thought. Perhaps that statement was true in the 1960s, but not anymore.
I used to think of it as "big person's writing" when I was a kid. When you can write in cursive you're suddenly more grown-up. After that, printing just seemed like something only the really young kids did.
But now it seems most people think of it more as a chore than something that is useful to them.
I didn't think the other teachers at my school were uneducated idiots for not knowing how to write in cursive; they were really smart guys. They learned it in school, but admitted that they promptly forgot because they weren't forced to use it like I was. In the age of computers, cursive handwriting is like comparing records to MP3s.
I do agree that it is easier to read printing over some people's handwriting. However, I think if people write in cursive properly (and if people are used to reading it), it shouldn't be a problem. It is much quicker than printing if you're used to it. And it looks better in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
KumaraKitty
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Location: Bucheon
|
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have always preferred to write cursive. My printing is sloppy and painful looking because I am so used to cursive some letters just naturally end up joined together. I have to hand-print reports once every month, and my anal Manager gets so cheesed off every time he reads my printing and has trouble understanding what I've written. I'm always having to re-print things, but when I say it would be so much easier if he just let me type them all, he starts yapping about how Korean parents want to see our writing or something ridiculous like that.
I had 2 students who had studied in the USA, elementary students, and both could write very nicely in cursive. I was quite impressed. I think Korean parents would love it if their children could write so nicely in English. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ursus_rex
Joined: 20 Mar 2004 Location: Seoul, ROK
|
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Maybe I'm showing my age, but how could anyone take notes in university without cursive... or shorthand. I could never have done it in noncursive handwriting. Notebook computers or laptops were not an option in my day. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005 Location: Gangnam
|
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Njord wrote: |
| Demonicat wrote: |
| I will always prefer print to cursive. Reason being that I am more concerned with the speed that others can read my writing (professional writing, boards, reports, etc), then I am in the speed at which I place it on paper. |
This is a good point. If you are writing for yourself, then feel free to scribble anything you like. If you are writing for someone else, the reader should be your first concern. The problem with cursive is not just that it is inherently more difficult to read. Since the 1960's it has not been standardized from one country to another or even from one school to another. In addition, many people feel the need to devise their own cursive script for personal use.
I happen to be able to read and write in cursive, albeit rather slowly. Since fifth grade I have been required to write in cursive once: a one-sentence statement on the SAT to the effect that I did not cheat. It is also handy for signatures and bank checks, but not necessary. In other words, one can function nearly perfectly in English without using cursive. And you think this is worth the time of EFL students who struggle to hold a basic conversation?
A typical United States curriculum devotes thirty minutes or more, every day of one school year to studying cursive. Here are my suggestions for how to better use this time:
Penmanship: Rather than teaching students to write poorly in two systems, why not teach them to write legibly in one? It is very frustrating trying to decipher illegible handwriting.
Keyboarding: This is how most people write, most of the time. This is a good thing because it is the fastest (a competent typist can write as fast as they think) and the easiest to read. It is also fast and easy to learn.
At this point, most arguments fall back on the supposed benefits of learning cursive: improved symbolic reasoning, discipline, beauty, and learning the ��flow�� of language. Surely these can be better taught in other contexts such as math, art, and creative writing classes.
There remains the argument that students should learn cursive in order to read it. This is circular. In any case, it would take far less time to teach students to read cursive than it takes to teach them to write it.
None of this is to suggest that I think learning cursive is worthless. Indeed, I think students who are so motivated should be encouraged to learn. But to require all students to spend such an enormous amount of class time learning something of marginal practical and intellectual value seems a waste to me.
P.S. I know my view is a minority one in this community. I also know that this is an emotional issue for some people. (Actually, I don��t really understand why this is.) I��m interested in your arguments but not your vitriol.  |
What he said.
��S�� |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Njord

Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Location: South Korea
|
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ursus_rex wrote: |
| Maybe I'm showing my age, but how could anyone take notes in university without cursive... or shorthand. I could never have done it in noncursive handwriting. Notebook computers or laptops were not an option in my day. |
Well, laptops are an option now, and that is part of the point. More importantly, note taking is not about speed. (Although some speed helps and I developed shorthand for this.) It's about organization. I never could understand the people who started writing a mile-a-minute the moment the professor started speaking and didn't rest until the end of the lecture. If you are writing down everything, you are not taking good notes. You need to listen and understand the main points, categories, and important facts and put them to paper in a logical arrangement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Njord

Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Location: South Korea
|
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KumaraKitty wrote: |
| I had 2 students who had studied in the USA, elementary students, and both could write very nicely in cursive. I was quite impressed. I think Korean parents would love it if their children could write so nicely in English. |
Well, this is nice. (In truth, I'm not trying to be sarcastic.) However, it is not an argument for teaching cursive to all students. We don't teach for the benefit of parents' vanity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|