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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gorgias wrote: |
| I see your links @Troll_Bait, however from person experience I have found that what we masterbate to is what forms our sexual orientation and fetishes. |
Other way round. For those that use visual stimulus for masturbation ( my own mind is plenty filthy enough ), we chose the material based on our already formed orientation. You can't change someones orientation by making them masturbate to material of a different orientation. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Show me a lesbian who has no issues with men. Show me a lesbian who can honestly say "I have no issues with men, I love them, I just want to sleep with women". |
Show me any woman who has no issues with men. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
In laymen's terms, sexuality is bio-chemically pre-programmed. It isn't learned, it isn't chosen, it isn't anything but a biological thing that's there from birth. |
Well, as a biochemist, I'd say you're wrong. Human behavior is far more complex than that. Sexuality can be both predetermined at birth and learnt through the environment in which we live. One's sexuality is determined by a variety of biological, psychological, and sociological factors.
Never heard of the Sambia tribe in New Guinea where men initiate the boys into adulthood through sexual rites? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/pages/sy_r.html
This is the story of Sy Rogers, a former homosexual man. It talks about aspects of his life including being on the verge of having a sex change operation.
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Yes, very erudite contribution to the discussion, and not at all driven by your anti gay agenda... 
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Can't people disagree with you when someone posts a question? It is an opinion which is as valid as anyone else who desires to share an opinion on this board.
I have no problem with gay people themselves and have no problem associating with them, but of course I don't agree with the practice.
I simply posted a bunch of stories about people who were gay and are not now. I personally can't say when someone became gay, but I definitely believe that people can (as fiveeagles says) be set free. While you may not agree and see it as another opporunity to criticise anything Christian, many people from many backgrounds would find those stories very interesting and possibly even presenting issues that some people had never considered before in regards to those who are homosexua.
The stories are written by people who have lived that life. So they have an integreity in these types of discussions that we do not have. They have seen and lived on both sides of the fence.
Any doctors or other medical people got any information to shed more light on the disussion regarding yet discussed issues? |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
| I simply posted a bunch of stories about people who were gay and are not now. |
I read the story, and noticed that even though the author no longer engages in homosexual behaviour, there is no evidence that his sexual orientation has been changed.
"Our Reporter Survives the Ex-Gay Ministries. Exodus International Programs To Cure Individuals of Homosexuality," The Progressive, 1995-Dec.
"Ex-gays are sexually celibate but homosexuality is still central to them: Everything in their lives revolves around homosexuality and avoiding it. Listening to Exodus conference junkies and ex-program members speak, it is easy to see how this subculture is maintained. Ultimately, the difference between gays and ex-gays is like the difference between cheese and cheddar. The ex-gays try to drown their homosexuality in Bible verses, marriage, family, and their own new subcultural niche, but their homosexuality remains."
"There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation."
- American Psychiatric Association fact sheet, 1994, September
"...scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works."
- American Psychological Association, 1994.
"...[reparative therapy] "can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
- American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
| I simply posted a bunch of stories about people who were gay and are not now. |
"There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation."
- American Psychiatric Association fact sheet, 1994, September
"...scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works."
- American Psychological Association, 1994.
"...[reparative therapy] "can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
- American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993. |
The first story posted was about Sy Rogers. He has been married about 25 years and has a child about 20 years old. If that isn't changed, I don't know what is.
There are numerous reports similar. Just because these quotes don't agree that one can change sexuality, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is too much testimony from people who have changed to deny it. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
In laymen's terms, sexuality is bio-chemically pre-programmed. It isn't learned, it isn't chosen, it isn't anything but a biological thing that's there from birth. |
Well, as a biochemist, I'd say you're wrong. Human behavior is far more complex than that. Sexuality can be both predetermined at birth and learnt through the environment in which we live. One's sexuality is determined by a variety of biological, psychological, and sociological factors.
Never heard of the Sambia tribe in New Guinea where men initiate the boys into adulthood through sexual rites? |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
The first story posted was about Sy Rogers. He has been married about 25 years and has a child about 20 years old. If that isn't changed, I don't know what is.
There are numerous reports similar. |
*ahem*
I hate repeating myself, but I feel like I don't have much choice.
"Our Reporter Survives the Ex-Gay Ministries. Exodus International Programs To Cure Individuals of Homosexuality," The Progressive, 1995-Dec.
"Ex-gays are sexually celibate but homosexuality is still central to them: Everything in their lives revolves around homosexuality and avoiding it. Listening to Exodus conference junkies and ex-program members speak, it is easy to see how this subculture is maintained. Ultimately, the difference between gays and ex-gays is like the difference between cheese and cheddar. The ex-gays try to drown their homosexuality in Bible verses, marriage, family, and their own new subcultural niche, but their homosexuality remains."
Many homosexuals get married and have kids, but they don't really change who they are, deep in their hearts.
They simply don a mask to hide their shame and live a lie.
Yes, Mr. Sy Rogers is married and has a child.
However, read his story carefully. He never says anything like:
"Yeah, my wife is so hot! How could I have missed that all of my life? She makes me a horndog!! Rraawwrr!"
What he does talk about is the guilt and pain that he felt for much of his life.
Of course, much of this comes from society's prejudice and ignorance.
That he blamed himself is sad.
Hmmm ...
On the one hand, the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics all agree that scientific evidence testifies as to the inefficacy of reparative (or conversion) therapy.
On the other hand, somebody thinks it works because somebody else said so.
Well, I guess I have no recourse but to throw up my hands and say, "Gee, I know when I'm beat."  |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
I simply posted a bunch of stories about people who were gay and are not now. I personally can't say when someone became gay, but I definitely believe that people can (as fiveeagles says) be set free. While you may not agree and see it as another opporunity to criticise anything Christian, many people from many backgrounds would find those stories very interesting and possibly even presenting issues that some people had never considered before in regards to those who are homosexua.
The stories are written by people who have lived that life. So they have an integreity in these types of discussions that we do not have. They have seen and lived on both sides of the fence.
Any doctors or other medical people got any information to shed more light on the disussion regarding yet discussed issues? |
Have you read those stories? They're disgusting what Christians were telling them and the ideas they were putting into their heads. But yes, you can have an opinion and I would never have it otherwise, but mine is those testimonials are disgusting.
I highlighted the section in your quote for obvious reasons showing you true opinion. The second highlighted part is false. These people were brainwashed. They consistently go on about how they still fight the urge. You didn't change them, just brainwashed them. If someone told them drinking poison would cure them, they would probably do it.
And please don't use this as a way to feel sorry for the so-called persecution of Christians. People aren't attacking it because it is Christian, they are attacking it because it is wrong. Big difference.
People don't attack the KKK because they are Christian, but because they are racist pigs (though I am not comparing you or 99.9% of the Christians out there to the KKK) |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, I would like to see the Christians do what they do to these poor people in the opposite way. I wonder how many straight people they could turn into homosexuals (or atleast seem that way) using the same methods ??? |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: |
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You people are bunch of idiots! Of course we don't get to choose our sexual orientation... otherwise we'd all be bi... and double our chances of getting 'lucky'.  |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Show me a lesbian who has no issues with men. Show me a lesbian who can honestly say "I have no issues with men, I love them, I just want to sleep with women". |
Show me any woman who has no issues with men. |
I can show you several, including ones I:ve dated and broken up with and remained friends with. Sorry you`re not amoung them (the "no issues with men" group, not my ex`s!) but don`t be presuming everyone is like you. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Do people get to choose their sexual orientation? |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Basically, I've always believed that sexual orientation was something you were born with, not something you choose. Partly, the reasons were political |
How is this a political question? Put it to yourself this way: do I, myself, have the power to choose whether I screw dudes or chicks or both? Most humans overestimate their own control over their lives, and believe absolutely in free will, so I think most of us would say "yes I have the power." If you believe it, there's your answer. Proof: go screw one person of each gender. If the universe does not cease to exist, my theory holds. |
I meant 'political' in the sense that it wasn't so long ago that homosexuality was considered by serious clinical psychologists to be a disease, and by most of society t be 'abnormal'. If it is demonstrated that sexual orientation is primarily something you are born with, then it follows that being gay is part of the natural variation in the human species, in the same way that hair color or handedness is. It follows, therefore, that if homosexuals are as 'normal' as everybody else, there is no justification for denying the validity of their wants and needs as an interest group in a pluralistic society, and that they have just as much right not to be discriminated against as everybody else. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
From my understanding, homosexuality is primarily bio-chemically driven. However people can become homosexual for environmental, social, or political reasons also. In my experience, gay men are overwhelmingly biologically gay from birth. I`ve had several gay male friends and they all say the same thing, "I knew I was gay when I was 5 years old" ( or there abouts ). I believe the dynamic of homosexuality are quite different fro women, and are not and equal yet opposite analogue of the male situation. With women, gayness is more likely to be a politically driven choice to reject men, rather than an innate biological gayness. I won`t quantify that with number, I see it as a valid observation of a tendency. Show me a lesbian who has no issues with men. Show me a lesbian who can honestly say "I have no issues with men, I love them, I just want to sleep with women". Gay men are much less likely to have a jaundiced view of women, and are not so much rejecting women as chosing men. They tend to happier, less political people too.
As an example, I had a girlfriend in Uni. We lived together from the first year onwards. Without going into details, the sex was passionate and uninhibited, without reserve or any kind of issues. She happened to be taking a women`s studies course. The next year she changed it to her major. As time went on, she wanted to talk more and more about feminist issues, started going to women only parties, eventually she was having a social life I was not even allowed to participate in. Finally, after three years of living together very happily, she announces she`s gay, at the grand old age of 23, a little late for bilogical drives to be kicking in don`t you think? |
Although I don't agree with everything you say, I agree that you raise some interesting and pertinent points. It does seem to be more socially acceptable (relatively speaking) to be lesbian than to be a gay male. And from this I guess my original question arises. It seems to be socially easier for women to "choose" to be gay.
But then to take the example of your girlfriend, if at the grand old age of 30 her biological clock kicks in and she decides to "settle down and get married", was she ever really gay in the first place? And I'm not trying to be judgemental, I honestly don't have an answer to the question.
I think Troll_Bait made an important point when he/she pointed out the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual behavior, one I hadn't thought of. |
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