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Logic, get some.
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itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:04 am Post subject:

A life , get one!

Gorgias

Joined: 27 Aug 2005

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:38 am Post subject:

Quote:

in argumentation one should cite evidence of a specific logical fallacy

This is a good place to go from, logic is also not very fun. The fallacies are however fairly straight forward. These are all fine:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fallacies.htm
http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Overview.html

However, I once heard it said (Prof. Douglas N. Walton) that, "all arguments are fallacies; we can therefore categorize arguments by their fallacy type."
Or, we can build arguments by perusing the fallacies and inserting claims relavant to the arguments we wish to build.
In otherwords, argument is bunk; and decisions are made on the level of emotion anyway. Posters who truly wish to persuade might be be better off posting colorful and sexy adverts for their positions.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject:

OMG, I would delete this a pretend I didn't read half of these posts if I could. Please forget I ever posted this.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:

Satori wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Satori wrote:

I wouldn`t be jumping on a soap box just yet. You`re reasonably fast and loose with logic yourself young pilgrim.

You logic your way through it and see if it is true or false.

This is a fragment from one of your posts, that we didn't even get on to addressing. You were stating your reasons for why people would not go into the profession of thier qualification after uni. One of them was because they...

Quote:

are not cut out for the professional world (and should not be teaching, even in a hagwon)

And that, my friend, is not logical. Each job has a unique skill set and personality requirements. There are people who would not, and could not have a career in one of the professions back home, who make excellent esl teachers, and I know several of them.

Teaching is a profession. Therefore, if you aren't cut out for the professional world, then you aren't cut out for teaching. My logic is fine. And actually, there are people like that.
It was my overall idea of the reasons some people don't immediately go from university into their field that was wrong, as I was missing some and you put some more into that idea.

Last edited by laogaiguk on Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Logic, get some.

joe_doufu wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

1)All apples are fruits.
2)All fruits are not apples.

Are you on crack? Some fruits are in fact apples.

If I was a newbie, I would swear you were just trolling Joe.

Another example of universities obviously letting people out of university without any logic or math skills was someone in the current events forum (I forget where) who said 3.4X10^9 was three quarters of 4.5X10^12 (the numbers were different, but not the exponents). There were some other things and it shocks me the level of math and logic they are letting people out of university with. I think everyone should have to take a normal Math and English course before graduating (and not a Math or English for dummies course).

Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

Teaching is a profession. Therefore, if you aren't cut out for the professional world, then you aren't cut out for teaching. My logic is fine.

Teaching esl in a Hagwon is absolutely NOT a profession. And your logic is not fine. Let me outline some of the ways in which Hagwon teaching is different from a profession. A profession requires training and qualification in specific skills, eg you get an accounting degree before you become an accountant. Hagwon teaching can be done with any generic degree. A profession has an increasing pay scale, the longer you stay in it, the more you are paid. This is not so with Hagwon teaching. A profession has a promotion scale. The longer you stay ( assuming you do your job well ) the more people you will be responsible for.

Then there is the fact that the skills of Hagwon teaching are quite different. You don't even need to be particularly bright to do it well. You don't even need to be a good gramatician. You need to love teaching, love children, be fun, patient, creative, and energetic. These skill alone without other skills would not qualify you for any profession that I know of.

Your position that Hagwon teaching is a profession is completely illogical.

By extension your position that "If you're not cut out for a profession you should not be teaching in a Hagwon" is also completely illogical. There are people that are not cut out for a profession that are excellent Hagwon teachers.

You're now zero for two. Way to go logic boy...

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Logic, get some.

laogaiguk wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

1)All apples are fruits.
2)All fruits are not apples.

Are you on crack? Some fruits are in fact apples.

If I was a newbie, I would swear you were just trolling Joe.

Before you go accusing people of being uneducated about math and logic, try this one on.
proposition 1: all apples are fruits = all apples fall under the category "fruits"
proposition 2: the number of apples in the universe is greater than zero
conclusion: some fruits are apples
GOTCHA

Oh, some people are graduating without English skills too? Maybe if you'd written "Not all fruits are apples" instead of "All fruits are not apples", you wouldn't have come across as PWI! There is a huge difference of meaning from moving that one word around... grammar, get some!

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Logic, get some.

Screw this, I'm going home. Last edited by laogaiguk on Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:55 am; edited 2 times in total

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject:

Satori wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Teaching is a profession. Therefore, if you aren't cut out for the professional world, then you aren't cut out for teaching. My logic is fine.

First of all, if you dispute my premise that a hagwon is not a profession, then that is fine. You have to separte the logic from the premise. You logically build off the premise. But the logic from my premise that a hagwon is a profession (get to that in a bit) to a person who can't cut it in the professional world can't then be a hagwon teacher is quite fine.
Now, for the profession bit...
There are many people who have made a career in this profession, going to get CELTAs, DELTAs, MAs and PHDs and plan on teaching in academies for a long time. Back home, in Europe, etc etc. Now many academies here in Korea suck, but teaching in academies (which is a hagwon) is still a profession many people do make a lifelong career out of (more so in Europe and English speaking countries though). Acadamies do have promotion chances. Even in Korea, like CDI and a few others.
A programmer is also a profession, but you can also just hire a kid of the street to program at a crappy internet company too. Same goes for hagwons (academies).

I still doing just fine thank you.

Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:21 am Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

There are many people who have made a career in this profession, going to get CELTAs, DELTAs, MAs and PHDs and plan on teaching in academies for a long time.

People are also buskers for a long time. You see the lack of logic here. Doing something for a long time doesn't make it a profession.

Quote:

Back home, in Europe, etc etc. Now many academies here in Korea suck, but teaching in academies (which is a hagwon) is still a profession many people do make a lifelong career out of (more so in Europe and English speaking countries though).

We have more logical problems here. An academy is not a Hagwon, a Hagwon is an academy yes. A Hagwon is specific to Korea.

Quote:

Acadamies do have promotion chances.

While literally true, that statement is intellectually dishonest, as it describes a very tiny minority of Hagwon positions here. And even then, the "promotion" opportunities are not equivilant to the opportunities in what normal people ( one's that aren't backpeddling and trying to recover from logical mistakes on a message board ) refer to as "professions".

Quote:

You have to separte the logic from the premise. You logically build off the premise.

The premise is logically flawed it's self. As is your entire construction, including your definitions.
[quote]
But the logic from my premise that a hagwon is a profession (get to that in a bit) to a person who can't cut it in the professional world can't then be a hagwon teacher is quite fine.
quote]
Even if we roll with this flawed idea that a Hagwon job is a profession, your statement is still completely rediculous. A person could be unsuited to ALL other professions and still be totally suited to Hagwon teaching, it's that unique.

Your entire process is flawed at every stage, your premise, the way you define terms, and your logical process. As a result, your statement bears absolutely no resemblance to reality at all, it's pure garbage. That's why I find it sound outrageous that it was you who made the call for people to use more logic around here. You're simply not a deep thinker, nor knowledgable about Hagwon teaching.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject:

Satori, I had posted a big thing, but got rid of it. This is not worth it. You are incapable of a civil debate (or even argument). You always just throw around insults. Teaching ESL/EFL is a profession, and there are many people, including my CELTA instructors who would be quite insulted by your idea that anyone who works in a hagwon (Korea), buxiban (China), eikaiwa (Japan), fronterssia (Greece), etc etc is not a professional. But we will just have concede we have different ideas of teaching ESL/EFL. Type this into google "ESL is it a profession" See what you get.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:23 am Post subject:

Satori wrote:

Most of what you say here is not factual.

Quote:

You need to love teaching, love children, be fun, patient, creative, and energetic. These skill alone without other skills would not qualify you for any profession that I know of.

This part is true, however, and argues (a bit) for the supremacy "hagwon teaching" (or any teaching) as superior to being part of any so-called "profession."

Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Satori wrote:

Most of what you say here is not factual.

Your sentence is actually correct. All of it is factual.

IchiTK

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Location: on my way...

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject:

Satori wrote:

Teaching esl in a Hagwon is absolutely NOT a profession.

In point of fact, ANY occupation can be a profession. A professon is simply an occupation from which someone builds a career. In every occupation there are professionals, hacks, and amateurs. Need each of these categories be defined?

Satori wrote:

A profession requires training and qualification in specific skills...

You are referring here to a subset of career possibilies such as law, medicine, engineering, etc. These careers do indeed require specialized formal training. However, this does not obviate the previous, more general definition of the term. The fields of music and cuisine, the arts in general actually, consist of a mixture of those with formal training and those who learned through on-the-job experience. Politics and business are two other fields made up of a large number of people with non-specialized degrees, or specialized degrees outside of thier chosen fields.

And as for busking, it has been for some both a step up the career ladder and a noble profession in its own right.

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