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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| If a terrorist is in jail for participating, planning or supporting terrorist actions their religion is immaterial. |
Why are the motivations and justifications that terrorists use immaterial? If you have an understanding of what motivates them, then you stand a far better chance of tackling the threat from such groups.
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| Just because there are a known groups of terrorists who happen to be muslim doesnt mean the reason they are in jail is religion based. |
Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda and Jamaat Islamiyaah do not 'just happen to be muslim' in the same way that Cosa Nostra 'just happen to be Catholic'. Their entire raison d'etre, motivation, justification and aims are specifically Islamic, and saying that their religion is immaterial is patent nonsense. The reason they are in jail is presumably because they were involved in terrorist activities, and the reason they are involved in such activities is because they were fighting a Jihad against infidels to further the goals of Islam. You saying otherwise is either the result of ignorance or a simple repetition of PC platitudes.
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous anyway. In 15 years, abortion extremists killed 5 people. How many Americans did Islamic terrorists kill in the same time period. But let's continue with yet more moral equivalence and self delusion, in total opposition to the facts. [/b] |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda and Jamaat Islamiyaah do not 'just happen to be muslim' in the same way that Cosa Nostra 'just happen to be Catholic'. Their entire raison d'etre, motivation, justification and aims are specifically Islamic, and saying that their religion is immaterial is patent nonsense. The reason they are in jail is presumably because they were involved in terrorist activities, and the reason they are involved in such activities is because they were fighting a Jihad against infidels to further the goals of Islam. You saying otherwise is either the result of ignorance or a simple repetition of PC platitudes. |
Yada yada yada.
So they are muslim, catholic or whatever. Are all religous nuts terrorists? Nope.
Just because some nutjobs hide behind a religion means nothing. They are not in jail because of their faith.....they are in jail because of their actions!
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| the reason they are involved in such activities is because they were fighting a Jihad against infidels to further the goals of Islam. |
So the goals of islam is to maim and murder people around the world? Is that what you claim?
They may claim they are fighting a jihad.....they may also claim that the moon is cheese....that doesnt make it true. They may think they are holy warriors and all that crap but the fact of the matter is they are brainwashed terrorists who serve only their own purposes and hide behind their religion.
Those are two distinctly different animals! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
As a Christian, Fiveeagles has every right to be primarily concerned about Christian persecution. He's not condoning Darfur as far as I can tell. |
Fair enough. |
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dutchman
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: My backyard
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Terrorists |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
For example,
you're much more at risk of being the target of Christian hate groups if you're working in an abortion clinic
or in a building housing an abortion clinic,
working in a gay bar,
hanging out in a city park before an Olympics,
being in public with a person not of your "race",
you're a judge who makes Identity Christians pay their property taxes and parking tickets...
Oddly enough, the only domestic terrorist group that gets any government press is the equally dangerous/crazy albeit LEFTIST Earth First aholes. |
Four out of your six examples were done by ONE MAN. A man acting on his own with no organization to support him in any way. He was captured foraging thru a dumpster! You think that one man represents a larger Christian terrorist threat?
Also, when some idiots commit some atrocity in the name of Christianity, what is the reaction of mainstream Christians? Condemnation and disgust.
Where is the outcry of disgust from mainstream Muslims? The silence is deafening. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Terrorists |
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| dutchman wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
For example,
you're much more at risk of being the target of Christian hate groups if you're working in an abortion clinic
or in a building housing an abortion clinic,
working in a gay bar,
hanging out in a city park before an Olympics,
being in public with a person not of your "race",
you're a judge who makes Identity Christians pay their property taxes and parking tickets...
Oddly enough, the only domestic terrorist group that gets any government press is the equally dangerous/crazy albeit LEFTIST Earth First aholes. |
Four out of your six examples were done by ONE MAN. A man acting on his own with no organization to support him in any way. He was captured foraging thru a dumpster! You think that one man represents a larger Christian terrorist threat?
Also, when some idiots commit some atrocity in the name of Christianity, what is the reaction of mainstream Christians? Condemnation and disgust.
Where is the outcry of disgust from mainstream Muslims? The silence is deafening. |
Well said, Dutchman. That is what shocked me the most about 9-11, not the acts of terrorism, but the response by the Muslim world. I saw Muslim leaders, scholars and whatnot say things along the lines of: We do not condone such actions. These actions are not in keeping with true Islam. However, the US would do well to change its policies in the Mid-East and those regarding Palestine. It was like a giant game of good cop, bad cop. [We wouldn't do these things, but we have these crazy kin who will and we can't control them, so you'd better think twice...oh, but we do condemn these actions.] I truly had the feeling that while Iran openly cheered, millions of others cheered more quietly and diplomatically. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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This started off as just Christian extremists, but turned into muslim vs christian extremists. Muslim extremists are much worse than the Christian ones, I would love to see someone truly argue against that. But that doesn't mean there are not Christian extremists nor that we should ignore them.
It's funny, some people say we can't really call the KKK a Christian group, but these same people will say all the terrorists are from a Muslim group. I wonder how many Muslims think the same things about the terrorists as Christians about the KKK.
Finally, please remember our societies allow everyone to condemn a bunch of crazy Christians, but Muslim societies are not quite as open and a lot of people probably don't want to risk DEATH for condeming the Muslim terrorists. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| They may think they are holy warriors and all that crap but the fact of the matter is they are brainwashed terrorists who serve only their own purposes and hide behind their religion. |
Their main purpose is the imposition of Shariah Law and the restoration of the Caliphate. These goals are fully in line with Islamic theology and teaching. Saying that they are brainwashed terrorists is a nice way of avoiding the very real problem that there are such Islamic groups all over the globe. You are avoiding the worrying reality that they are not brainwashed fools, but committed, often wealthy, educated men who believe that what they are doing is mandated by Islamic history and the Koran.
| Quote: |
| They are not in jail because of their faith.....they are in jail because of their actions! |
Yes, but their faith, or their own extreme version of that faith, led them to commit acts of gross violence. Ignoring their motives is just as dangerous as ignoring the role that extreme nationalism played in the rise of the Nazis. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Just to be clear,
is the OP suggesting that Christian fanatics are today as dangerous as Muslim fanatics? |
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Doutdes
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
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| econdly, you ignore that many of the hate crimes committed by blacks also contain an economic incentive |
So your point is that hates crimes are OK as long as you steal a wallet. Do you feel thats a defensible point? |
Saying that hate crimes are OK as long as they are economically beneficial isn't a defensible point. If I ever make that point, you will have ample reasons to criticize me. However, I didn't say that. I said you ignored the economic incentive that hate crimes committed by blacks often have. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Just to be clear,
is the OP suggesting that Christian fanatics are today as dangerous as Muslim fanatics? |
No. Simply more Americans in America last year were killed or injured by members of Christian hate groups than by Islamic terrorists. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, but their faith, or their own extreme version of that faith, led them to commit acts of gross violence. Ignoring their motives is just as dangerous as ignoring the role that extreme nationalism played in the rise of the Nazis. |
I'm not ignoring the extremist factor.....i'm just saying that you cannot say they are in jail because of their religion. There are millions of people who worship islam.....most of them are not terrorists(one would hope)
I have my own thoughts on how extremists, terrorists and instigators should be dealt with.
Put snipers around compounds.....let it be known that if you throw rocks at our people or buildings you will die....first moron to throw a rock gets wasted. Eventually they will learn....hopefully.
Take the funerals in Palestine. When all the AK47 toting terrorists with fake bombs show up and start chanting death to Isreal, death to America, to Europe...etc. You call a rocket strike in on them and blow them to smithereens. If they want to assemble peacefully let them....if they want to hold terrorist demonstrations biatchslap em!
Legalise torture(if you call using truth syrum torture) to extract information from terrorist suspects.....a few days with some sodium pentathol in you to clear you of being a suspect is preferable to spending years in prison. It would also allow agencies to find and deal with other cells more quickly and efficiently.
No monetary rewards for the families of terrorists....if its wrong to punish them for the actions of a terrorist its equally wrong to reward them for those same actions!
Penalties for those involved with terrorist organisations or actions should be extreme....siezure of all assets, execution.
Extreme actions to deal with extremists. Sooner or later governments will have to face the fact that you cant deal with terrorist extremists with PC gloves. The sooner the better.
The only problem with this way of thinking is that it is wide open for abuse  [/quote] |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Just to be clear,
is the OP suggesting that Christian fanatics are today as dangerous as Muslim fanatics? |
No. Simply more Americans in America last year were killed or injured by members of Christian hate groups than by Islamic terrorists. |
You were? Cool. More Americans are killed every year by drowning in the bathtub than by Muslim terrorists.
Woo hoo! Bathtub jihad. Has a nice ring to it. Get it? Nice ring to it. Ha ha.
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/rr01563.htm |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Just to be clear,
is the OP suggesting that Christian fanatics are today as dangerous as Muslim fanatics? |
No. Simply more Americans in America last year were killed or injured by members of Christian hate groups than by Islamic terrorists. |
You were? Cool. More Americans are killed every year by drowning in the bathtub than by Muslim terrorists.
Woo hoo! Bathtub jihad. Has a nice ring to it. Get it? Nice ring to it. Ha ha.
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/rr01563.htm |
Yes but bathtubs don't actively seek to kill people based on the way they think. Bathtubs don't try to recruit people into their fold to spread hate and violence.
*pat pat* your analogy stupid.
Anyway, the point is there are Christian terrorist groups in the USA committing acts of violence, planning acts of violence, spreading hate, encouraging people to kill in the name of God. It would seem to me, statictically you're more likely to be killed or injured by a Christian terrorist than a Muslim terrorist. But you don't see the Bush government spending 20 billion dollars to aid states in combating Christian terrorists. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Just to be clear,
is the OP suggesting that Christian fanatics are today as dangerous as Muslim fanatics? |
No. Simply more Americans in America last year were killed or injured by members of Christian hate groups than by Islamic terrorists. |
You were? Cool. More Americans are killed every year by drowning in the bathtub than by Muslim terrorists.
Woo hoo! Bathtub jihad. Has a nice ring to it. Get it? Nice ring to it. Ha ha.
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/rr01563.htm |
Yes but bathtubs don't actively seek to kill people based on the way they think. Bathtubs don't try to recruit people into their fold to spread hate and violence.
*pat pat* your analogy stupid.
Anyway, the point is there are Christian terrorist groups in the USA committing acts of violence, planning acts of violence, spreading hate, encouraging people to kill in the name of God. It would seem to me, statictically you're more likely to be killed or injured by a Christian terrorist than a Muslim terrorist. But you don't see the Bush government spending 20 billion dollars to aid states in combating Christian terrorists. |
Okay, you are focused on the results here. No Americans were killed inside America by Islamic extremists this year. Does that mean no attacks were planned? No. Does that mean Islamic extremists won't kill thousands next year? No, the attacks on 9-11 followed a few years of Americans not being killed by Muslim extremists. So, perhaps the lack of deaths of Americans in America is a function of the money being spent appropriately to prevent it. Or, perhaps, Al Qaeda and other groups have simply have a run of incompetence. Or, perhaps it is both (I like the idea that it is both).
Anyway, truly your thinking is an example of relativist equivalence taken to an illogical extreme. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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yeah, OP, you are forgetting about the potential for mass attacks by zee religion of peace when compared to the Xtians.
But really, any grownup with an imaginary friend is a bit of a wacko. Clearly, Islam breeds a certain kind of crazy, or attracts a certain kind of crazy. Either way, I fear Europe is all but dead. |
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