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| EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD ALLOW DOG EATING |
| Sure |
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51% |
[ 50 ] |
| I don't care |
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19% |
[ 19 ] |
| No way |
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29% |
[ 29 ] |
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| Total Votes : 98 |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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 Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Poor Lazarus wrote: |
| Certainly people can and will eat whatever they want, but one needn't be a vegetarian or a hypocrite to object to dogmeat consumption. |
I personally object to dogmeat consumption myself. However, the whole Danish cartoon fiasco has reminded me how ludicrous it is to globalize and impose cultural values. In short, Korea can do what it wants. Koreans and foreigners who object to this practice don't really have to overtly try to have it banned. All they have to do is point the camera and click. (A zoom function would be nice). Tourists, expats and investors will vote with their feet. |
Is there no internationally agreed morality at all? Would basic human rights and anti slavery come under this heading? Im talking about the torture part here, not the eating. How do you feel about clitorectomy? It's accepted cultural practice in some parts of Africa? Is this all good? Just another cultural norm? Or do we have some lines that go beyond culture? |
I would put human rights before everything else, including animal rights. So yes, there are definitely lines to be drawn. Unfortunately, the whole much ado about cartoons nonsense made me throw my hands up in the air regarding 99% of cultural differences. No 3rd world dictatorship should ever extend its control obsession to Western countries and their internal affairs. No 12th rate dictator should ever pronounce the death sentence on a non-violent artist who is not even a member of their own bloody country - not without asking for trouble themselves. What about the reverse? More so than ever (as in the past week or so), I believe that the Western nations comprise the least flawed culture on modern Earth. The best we could do for now is to stick to our usual principles (free speech, secular government etc) and wait for others to make idiots of themselves.
As far as the bosintang argument goes, perhaps there are subtle ways of getting the message across. How far can United Nations extend its influence on this subject? What is the alternative? Should we simply let the facts speak for themselves, and allow long-term market forces to punish Korea (just as they may eventually punish Japan for whaling)? |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: |
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i fail to see how some of you take offence with the beating of dogs which, measured in hours, cannot be worse than what poultry farms do to chickens over consecutive months with no reprieve.
i mean, force feeding a chicken through a tube with chemicals....keeping it in a cage barely big enough for lung expansion...day in and day out...allowing the wire mesh to gradually cut right through it's feet, causing painful, untreated infection...stacking those cages ten high so they defecate on each other...allowing that shit to eat right through their skin.
adrenaline goes a long way, if you're talking about hours. yet no one thinks twice in the line at KFC. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| the eye wrote: |
i fail to see how some of you take offence with the beating of dogs which, measured in hours, cannot be worse than what poultry farms do to chickens over consecutive months with no reprieve.
i mean, force feeding a chicken through a tube with chemicals....keeping it in a cage barely big enough for lung expansion...day in and day out...allowing the wire mesh to gradually cut right through it's feet, causing painful, untreated infection...stacking those cages ten high so they defecate on each other...allowing that *beep* to eat right through their skin.
adrenaline goes a long way, if you're talking about hours. yet no one thinks twice in the line at KFC. |
Already very well covered. These things are commercial necessities. That doesn't excuse them. If the other way is to produce less chicken, I'm all for it. That does not in any way shape or form make it the equivilant of the toruture of dogs which is TOTALLY not necessary for anything other than the supposed imporvement in taste from the adrenalin. Very different, and I made the point clearly before. One is driven by the need to produce a certain amount to feed the population, the other is TOTALLY optional. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
As far as the bosintang argument goes, perhaps there are subtle ways of getting the message across. How far can United Nations extend its influence on this subject? What is the alternative? Should we simply let the facts speak for themselves, and allow long-term market forces to punish Korea (just as they may eventually punish Japan for whaling)? |
Wow, I seem to have had a huge post deleted, which makes me look bad by saying points have been covered when the post is not there.
Anyway. I believe that any political type pressure on Korea about this would be very detrimental. Due to the absurdly nationalistic nature of the culture, I'm quite sure that any pressure would result in them doing it more fervently than ever. |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: |
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poultry farms torture chickens as a necessity to feed the population?
come on bud, it's all in the name of profit. no one's going to starve because a chicken has a bigger cage. that aspect is totally optional too...but money wins. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Korea's two uber apologists have shown thier true slimey colors |
After all this time...you still don't get it...sad really.
You did not answer the question Satori (as usual..you have a long history of doing this).
Let me use the crayons and white board for you.
I think beating dogs with sticks until they die is a horrible practice.
I also think dogs are getting a special pass into the morally protected category due to the cultural status they have in our home countries.
I also think that if a person is going to denounce dog meat consumption, they should be consitant about it and also denounce other in-humane treatment of cattle and poulty, othetwise it becomes selective outrage based on cultural preferences. There is no way to deny that fact.
If you are against the bad treatment of dogs, then by all means stand up for this cause instead of playing moral superior to others on here.
This last passage is laughable and even amusing and cute in its simplicity but you keep trying..
The rest of your pathetic attempts to defend this practice have been covered in my other post. You too have lost all credibility as a commentator on Korea. Actually, you never had any. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| the eye wrote: |
poultry farms torture chickens as a necessity to feed the population?
come on bud, it's all in the name of profit. no one's going to starve because a chicken has a bigger cage. that aspect is totally optional too...but money wins. |
Poultry farms don't torture chickens. They treat them badly, and there is a huge and clear difference. One is keeping them in terrible living conditions, the other is where the conscious inflicting of extreme pain is the desired result. You're right money wins, and they should have bigger cages. Trying to equate the two practices though is completely out of order. Strung upside down, beaten with a bat till all your bones break, and if you're unlucky, seared with a blow torch. It would not be a quick death. Im sorry, but Id rather have my beak cut off and live in extremely cramped conditions thanks. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Korea's two uber apologists have shown thier true slimey colors |
After all this time...you still don't get it...sad really.
You did not answer the question Satori (as usual..you have a long history of doing this). |
I did answer the question very thoroughly in a long detailed post. It's either been deleted or failed to upload properly.
| Quote: |
Let me use the crayons and white board for you. |
You're not Gord, so give it up Gilligan...
| Quote: |
I think beating dogs with sticks until they die is a horrible practice.
I also think dogs are getting a special pass into the morally protected category due to the cultural status they have in our home countries.
I also think that if a person is going to denounce dog meat consumption, they should be consitant about it and also denounce other in-humane treatment of cattle and poulty, othetwise it becomes selective outrage based on cultural preferences. There is no way to deny that fact.
If you are against the bad treatment of dogs, then by all means stand up for this cause instead of playing moral superior to others on here. |
Back to remedial reading class (again) for you little boy. I stated very very clearly that I was against torture not eating. Don't put words in my mouth thanks.
Now to your hopeless attempt at creating an equivilance between the treatment of livestock in the west and dogs in Korea. They are completely different catagories. One is poor treatment, the other is the conscious and deliberate attempt to cause as much pain as possible in order to pump the muscles with adrenalin. One is a factor of economics, the other is based on some bizzare cultural myth of male potency and the dubious concept of improved taste. It is conscious, deliberate, brutal, and completely unnecessary.
It's not at all about dogs having a free pass becuase of culture. If they smashed the bones of cattle or chicken, and blow torched them to death to improve the taste, I would be likewise outraged, and would probably, very reluctantly, give up meat.
| Quote: |
This last passage is laughable and even amusing and cute in its simplicity but you keep trying.. |
| Quote: |
The rest of your pathetic attempts to defend this practice have been covered in my other post. You too have lost all credibility as a commentator on Korea. Actually, you never had any. |
Oh the last part is entirely true. Your credibility of this site is zero. You're well known as the uber apologist, whose completely illogical and intellectually desperate knee jerk responses to valid criticisms of the culture can almost be predicted to the letter before you even post. You entire schtick can basically be compressed into "But it's just as bad back home", even when the evidence against your position is legion. You come across as a person who needs to defend Korea because of mental weakness. You've had to create an entire fantacy vision of Korea in order to maintain some inner harmony. For you to live here and actually acknowledge the problems would cause a break in your psychic fabric, because it's too unstable. You were the guy who once wrote "There's just as much racism in Canada as in Korea, it's just more hidden. Intellectual desperation at it's finest. Laughable mate... |
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pegpig
Joined: 10 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Not all dogs are tortured to death just as all animals raised for consumption in the West are not killed quickly. |
The difference is many dogs are beaten to death in Korea, whereas the vast majority of animals killed for consumption in the west are done so quickly (like 99.9% or more).
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
3. We have lines that go beyond culture. But again for the most part they apply to humans not animals. But again as numberous posters have pointed out, the West is hardly blameless in that regard. Talk to people at any animal shelter or most SPCA people. If they've been at it for any length of time they will have numberous stories of animal cruelty. Doesn't make it any more right than here. |
I don't believe that the SPCA is in the business of providing animals for consumption.
| Homer wrote: |
| Are dogs getting a free ticket under the international morality umbrella because they have cultural value in the West? Or rather more cultural value than other animals raised and slaughtered for consumption? |
ho hum. This one's easy and has been addressed numerous times. It's not that they're eaten. It's the beating.
| Homer wrote: |
Also, how do you define torture? Do you limit it to the short time where dogs are alledgedly beaten to death or do you include industrial cattle farms back home where animals are tube fed and fattened up in pens barely large enough for them to stand, lined up in a corridor and then killed with a nail gun, one after the other while the other animals behind experience panic and fear from the smell of death ahead?
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| Homer wrote: |
I think beating dogs with sticks until they die is a horrible practice.
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What happened to 'allegedly' and 'short time'? 
Animals are tube fed? Give me a break. Killed with a nail gun? Sounds painless to me. Given a choice of being beaten to death with a bat over my entire body vs a nail gun to the head? Yeah, I think I'll take the gun.
| the eye wrote: |
i mean, force feeding a chicken through a tube with chemicals....keeping it in a cage barely big enough for lung expansion...day in and day out...allowing the wire mesh to gradually cut right through it's feet, causing painful, untreated infection...stacking those cages ten high so they defecate on each other...allowing that *beep* to eat right through their skin. |
Now, here's someone who knows nothing of what he's talking about. Force feeding chickens? I'm trying to picture all the manpower necessary to force feed thousands or hundreds of thousands of chickens. Seems like something you might see in some cartoon or something. Ah, now I see. Cages stacked 10 high?
| the eye wrote: |
adrenaline goes a long way, if you're talking about hours. yet no one thinks twice in the line at KFC. |
I think when I'm in line at KFC. I'm wondering why there isn't a Popeye's around here. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| "There's just as much racism in Canada as in Korea, it's just more hidden. Intellectual desperation at it's finest. Laughable mate... |
Nice to see you back to your old self kiwiboy/satori
As for your post...nothing more than your tired drivel driven by a simple mind that fails to grasp the obvious at every chance.
You keep plucking away at that guitar of yours...you have a better chance in that field of endeavor than in debate.
As for the tired apologist attack you pull out every time someone contradicts your world view it remains your only retort and the domain of a weak mind.
Here are a few questions for you, oh great cultural sage of our times, as a teacher here how involved are you with the community or with fellow teachers? Do you work with other teachers to improve their lives here? Do you get involved in any sort of community activity besides doing your little job? Do you go the extra mile to help your students when they need it or do you ask for cash before you do anything of the sort? Who is included in your great international morality crusade? Where does your cultural acceptace end (I suspect it ends right outside your door step as soon as it is confronted with anything that does not conform to your views)?
In the end, you are a sad little man who has no other recourse than to toss out tired labels when confronted with a debate. You profess cultural tolerance but do not practice it (a very easy position to maintain as it requires no thinking or effort but plenty of patronizing sermons). Your little history on here speaks volumes as well. You call me predictable perhaps you should look in the mirror or at the posts and responses you got under your old name of kiwiboy and now under Satori. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| the eye wrote: |
i fail to see how some of you take offence with the beating of dogs which, measured in hours, cannot be worse than what poultry farms do to chickens over consecutive months with no reprieve.
i mean, force feeding a chicken through a tube with chemicals....keeping it in a cage barely big enough for lung expansion...day in and day out...allowing the wire mesh to gradually cut right through it's feet, causing painful, untreated infection...stacking those cages ten high so they defecate on each other...allowing that *beep* to eat right through their skin.
adrenaline goes a long way, if you're talking about hours. yet no one thinks twice in the line at KFC. |
Good point. Between that, and the fact that the only time food made me sick in Mexico City was when I ate at KFC, I never go there.
I really think that I won't being eating chicken in the future for a variety of reasons. But it is possible in Korea to get "country chicken"- which is free range chicken. They are scrawny things, but they have good flavor. |
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hack
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems that the argument used in favor of eating dog is that poultry, cows etc etc are also eaten so it's OK to eat dog. I have always thought that the more intelligent the animal, the less apt we are to eat them. Now there are a lot of dumb dogs, but on the whole dogs seem to have way more intelligence than say cows or chickens - damm, when was the last time you saw a blind person walking down the street with a turkey leading him? But apparently that has no bearing on it for many of you. Try looking into the eyes even of those dogs that are raised for consumption and tell me you don't see any signs of intelligence in there. Now go look in a lamb's eyes and unless you have a pair of Wellingtons, there isn't much use for that animal other than eating it. So taking your logic further, I guess it's OK to eat any animal right? Gorillas, apes, chimps, cats, parrots-they all need to run for cover when they see you "If it isn't human we'll eat it" folks coming. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorillas, apes, chimps, cats, parrots-they all need to run for cover when they see you "If it isn't human we'll eat it" folks coming. |
Well..it would all depend on how the dish is prepared?
Parrot on a stick anyone?
Perhaps some Gorilla stew?
Ape steak?
Cat nuggets?
With the proper wine...it could be the start of a new chain of restaurants...lets call them Animal on your plate. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
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| "There's just as much racism in Canada as in Korea, it's just more hidden. Intellectual desperation at it's finest. Laughable mate... |
Nice to see you back to your old self kiwiboy/satori
As for your post...nothing more than your tired drivel driven by a simple mind that fails to grasp the obvious at every chance.
You keep plucking away at that guitar of yours...you have a better chance in that field of endeavor than in debate.
As for the tired apologist attack you pull out every time someone contradicts your world view it remains your only retort and the domain of a weak mind. |
This is you all over. You completely sidestepped all the points in my last post. I'll take that as a retraction of your position that dog beating is equivilant to mistreatment of livestock in the west. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Here are a few questions for you, oh great cultural sage of our times, as a teacher here how involved are you with the community or with fellow teachers? Do you work with other teachers to improve their lives here? Do you get involved in any sort of community activity besides doing your little job? Do you go the extra mile to help your students when they need it or do you ask for cash before you do anything of the sort? Who is included in your great international morality crusade? Where does your cultural acceptace end (I suspect it ends right outside your door step as soon as it is confronted with anything that does not conform to your views)?
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What is the relevance of these questions? You are so illogical it's rediculous. I'm supposed to be a philanthropist in order for me to make clear assessments of a culture? This has nothing to do with anything.
You are simply a knee jerk Korea defender with no sense of logic or perspective. Your statement about "just as much racism in Canada as in Korea" tells us everything we need to know about you. You're prepared to fly in the face of all evidence and all reality in order to maintain your position that there is nothing negative in Korea that doesn't have an equal analogue in the west. It's bizarre. You're the ultimate limp wristed cultural relativist.
I on the other hand, have credibility when I criticise Korea, for the very reason that I'm not a Korea hater at all. I'm interested only in reality. I have no bias. If Korea does something well, I talk about that too. I love the place, and my criticisms come from the position of wanting Korea to do better.
When I say that Koreans as a group tend towards nationalism, pride, victimhood, grudge holding, and immaturity, that is a fact Jack. I say it not because I hate Koreans, but because I see a lot of potential here, but will not be realised until there is a more sophisticated and mature view of culture and Korea's relation to the world. They want to be on the big boys playing feild, they've put themselves there with this "hub of asia" stuff, so they now will be judged by the big boys standards. And they have a long way to go before they will have the credibility to make this hub of asia dream come true.
Do you have any idea how you are percieved on here? You are the class clown mate. How would you like to submit yourself to a poll to find out how many people on here take anything you have to say seriously? |
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