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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Gorgias wrote: |
Also, here is some information on fallacies for your perusal...
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Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."
Ad Hominem Abusive.
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. |
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Those are good quotes, I admit. However, this sounds like another example of "running to the lawyers" - the very tactic you are supposedly against.
When you place yourself in a position against pedantry, you automatically subject yourself to a mighty lot of scrutiny. Just how many times are you going to be "caught out" and "tripped up" on this thread as you trot out clinical, pedantic, tut-tutting and tsk-tsking lectures to support your stand against Western clinical, pedantic attention to detail?
I forsee a 10-page path paved with philosophical irony that half of us will appreciate and the other half will perpetuate. Come back in a few days and tell me it didn't happen. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Gorgias, I some personal things to you at the end of my post, but the bulk of the post was solid argument against your position. So you can't really say that just becuase I used an ad hominem my whole post was invalid.
Im bored, so let's pretend to take you seriously for a moment or two.
Back in the day, at the dawn of human kind, everyone did everything, the only division was men and women. The men all hunted the wilderbeast, all killed it, cut it up, brough it home. They are gathered wood, made fires, protected the cave from Saber tooth tigers. Etc etc. Later on, we worked out that if we let one guy do the meat cutting, and get really good at it, and one guy make the weapons and get really good at it, etc, we got better quality products and a higher standard of living. Specialisation was one of the key steps in man's social evolution. Let the shoe man make the shoes, the bread man bake the bread, the black smith make the tools and weapons. It forced us to co-operate too, which was the beginning of social organisation. That is why we now have laws and policemen. It means that I can get on with my speciality, and focus on be a producer in society, while not having to spend my precious time and energy on also being a policeman worrying about you stealing my pig.
What you propose is a step backwards. If we all have to also be our own policeman, and traffic officer, and lawyer, then that takes away tons of time and energy that we would spend on producing value and creating a high standard of living society. I just don't think you've thought your position through thoroughly. |
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Gorgias
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| clinical, pedantic, tut-tutting and tsk-tsking lectures to support your stand against Western clinical, pedantic attention to detail |
@Barking Mad Lord Snapcase. Yes. But we don't want to be just wild beasts. Right? There ought to be some middle ground. What struck me about Korea was this: In some ways Koreans enjoy more freedom than we do. One "freedom to" which Koreans enjoy, yet which is probably over-rated, is the freedom to set their infants in the front seat, and not in baby-seats, so the infants get smashed in auto accidents. That is obviously not the most glorious freedom.
While on the other hand, many "clinical, pedantic" "freedoms from" which Westerners enjoy, are not merely obnoxious, but sometimes more oppressive than we realize until we are away from them. In the case of youth, curfews are a gross and glaring example.
(As for the pedantic style, last week one poster: @Mills mentioned that we (expatriate educators) ought to be and act like the intellectuals, not a bunch of beer drinking buffoons. Lately I was reading a history of the Japanese occupation, and had to notice all the agitation and works the Korean intellectuals were involved in. It's another topic all together, but "intellectuals" is not limited only to faculty.)
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| It means that I can get on with my speciality, and focus on be a producer in society, while not having to spend my precious time and energy on... |
@Satori. Are you a "producer?" Or maybe a "user" in post-modern jargon? Only? Your posts suggest that there is some more personality, character, wit, humor, intelligence, and so on about you. There must be some middle road, we ought not to be "wilderbeast," but we ought not to be robots either. To give a non-confrontational example, at a private restaurant in British Columbia, Canada, a person can not order real Caesar Salad Dressing. As Canadians enjoy close to Universal Health Care, there is a small issue of shared medical costs, none the less, what right does the elected Provincial Government have to impose on the goods and service provider, and on the customer, a restriction on egg yokes which is really a rather exclusive affair?
By no means am I suggesting that Civilization is without many benefits; rather, we ought to watch for the replacement of "freedoms to" with "freedoms from," in particular when it is a fearful lack of Trust in the Responsibility of one another that leads us to take our own freedoms from ourselves. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorgias wrote: |
| @Satori. Are you a "producer?" Or maybe a "user" in post-modern jargon? Only? |
In terms of my discourse, which was a socio-economic analysis, I'm a "producer" and most of us are unless we're unemployed, in that we "produce" something of value to society in terms of either goods, services or knowledge/information. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: "freedom to" and "freedom from" |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Gorgias wrote: |
| Drunk-drivers, like pedophiles, are some of the most hysterically demonized criminals in Western society. |
And for good reason.
They prey upon the weak and the innocent.
They are psychologically unwell, and care nothing of the harm that they do, only about their own selfish pleasure. |
They are both threats to small children and that provokes a justifiably strong reaction.
Although I don't think you can really say drunk drivers are 'hysterically demonized'. The fact that we feel anti-drink driving laws should be strict does not mean drunk drivers provoke anything like the loathing that paedophiles do. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: "freedom to" and "freedom from" |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Gorgias wrote: |
| Drunk-drivers, like pedophiles, are some of the most hysterically demonized criminals in Western society. |
And for good reason.
They prey upon the weak and the innocent.
They are psychologically unwell, and care nothing of the harm that they do, only about their own selfish pleasure. |
They are both threats to small children and that provokes a justifiably strong reaction.
Although I don't think you can really say drunk drivers are 'hysterically demonized'. The fact that we feel anti-drink driving laws should be strict does not mean drunk drivers provoke anything like the loathing that paedophiles do. |
Agreed... |
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tony602
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: but....... |
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At the moment the english language is lingua franca, lingua pura, whichever term you prefer...Americans arent to blame for the creation of the language, neither for democratization or globalization, no other forms of gov't have passed the test in the modern world, as const monarchs and communists have largely been passed by. China will have problems with an aging empire and heavy dependence on foreign investment in the very near future and remember that multii-national corps are driving the force of expansion in Asia. When labor is cheaper somewhere else, they will leave, producing a vacuum in the region, and further blame to the west. And, when that goes "south," world-wide inflation will sky-rocket nearly overnight, economic markets will collapse, the west included, and it will happen within our lifetime. The perpetual cynic.......hope that brightens someones day  |
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tony602
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: and one more thing..... |
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| Maybe Marx was right.....100% democratization and capitalism before the inevitable alternative....socialist communism....but we wont see that in our lifetime, but could happen!!!! |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: Re: and one more thing..... |
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| tony602 wrote: |
| Maybe Marx was right.....100% democratization and capitalism before the inevitable alternative....socialist communism....but we wont see that in our lifetime, but could happen!!!! |
Never! It had it's chance and was proven to not work.
Socialist communism makes everyone poor and takes away choice, while making a very few people extremely rich at the top. It takes away all business initiative. It removes competition. Competition creates excellence, innovation, efficiency, and the cheapest prices. It's an extremely poor way to manage the resourses of a country. |
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