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memorabilis
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking about just having my first name leagally changed to "Teacher". That way, when my students are saying incessantly, at least I'll be responding to the correct name.
I tell my adult students exactly how old I am so that they will all know that (I virtually all cases) they are older than me. Even then, they will only use my first name hesitantly and reluctantly.
It reminds me of how in India you are either Sir or Madam. My friend tried to explain to her cleaning lady (a.k.a. "the Servant" to Indians) that where she's from, "Madam" isn't really a thing you want to be called (selling women for sex). The best compromise they could make was that she was called "Dawn-Madam". I guess these things get pretty ingrained! |
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SuperHero
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| I've noticed that the more formal the ending, the longer it takes to say it. I wonder if that's intentional.... |
It's generally the same in English. To be more polite takes more time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
I should point out that there was a time a few months ago when I had a particularly rude, insolent student in the teacher's room speaking banmal with me and jondaemal with the K teacher. I asked him what the deal was, and he explained that since I'm not Korean, he assumed there was no need to apply levels of formality to me.
This makes me wonder if it's a matter of disrespect, or simply that we aren't part of the "family" and therefore not applicable to special conjugations.
I'm still not sure.
Q. |
I would have told him although I am not Korean I am still his teacher and therefore entitled to be addressed properly.
In the end it's up to you and how you feel. If it bothers you, make a consistant effort to eradicate the behaviour. If it's not a big deal, I wouldn't make a issue out of it.
But where I am now I've installed a English-only rule in the classroom, so it really doesn't come up as a problem. Anyway I hope things get better for you. Oh and one more thing. I've found (for me anyway) that the more Korean I know, the more respectful the kids tend to be. If you plan to be here a few years it might be worthwhile studying some Korean (if you aren't already). |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| memorabilis wrote: |
I'm thinking about just having my first name leagally changed to "Teacher". That way, when my students are saying incessantly, at least I'll be responding to the correct name.
I tell my adult students exactly how old I am so that they will all know that (I virtually all cases) they are older than me. Even then, they will only use my first name hesitantly and reluctantly.
It reminds me of how in India you are either Sir or Madam. My friend tried to explain to her cleaning lady (a.k.a. "the Servant" to Indians) that where she's from, "Madam" isn't really a thing you want to be called (selling women for sex). The best compromise they could make was that she was called "Dawn-Madam". I guess these things get pretty ingrained! |
My students can call me by my first name, my surname, Mr, sir, sunsaengnim, or any combination of the above, but '_______[first name]-teachuh' is out. It just sounds so ridiculous, even if it is a direct transliteration of what they'd say in Korean.
As to the first name thing, at my school they do it thinking it's a form of respect. My vice principal was forever calling me 'Mr _________[first name] thinking it was the equivalent of me calling him Mr Kim. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
I should point out that there was a time a few months ago when I had a particularly rude, insolent student in the teacher's room speaking banmal with me and jondaemal with the K teacher. I asked him what the deal was, and he explained that since I'm not Korean, he assumed there was no need to apply levels of formality to me.
This makes me wonder if it's a matter of disrespect, or simply that we aren't part of the "family" and therefore not applicable to special conjugations.
I'm still not sure.
Q. |
Of course it is indicative of less respect -- think about it. If there were no need to apply levels of formality to you, why would the student not choose to use the highest level of formality, or at least a neutral level? By choosing to use speech appropriate for subordinates and family pets, there was a clear choice to "disrespect" you.
When people prattle on about how younger Koreans are more "open" and understanding of the wider world than their elders, I really do wonder what they are smoking. Korean parents are contiuing to instill in their spawn the same ethnocentric glorification of all things Korean and disregard of all things not. |
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chiaa
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| They do not view you as a teacher and/or take your classes seriously. It can be your fault, their parents or your coworkers. The last two more than anything. |
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mj roach
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: students using bamal..where do you stand? |
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OP -
At the start of each class have the students stand and "perform" a formal greeting (�λ�) for the "teacher".
Make it a "ritual"..."Stand up, please."...(you see the ritual as the students slide their chairs under the desk/table...
you've just connected your class with the rituals they perform at their "real school" with their "real teachers".....
"Ready? 1, 2 , 3 "(����)....If all the heads don't bow "deeply"....Again! Ready? 1, 2, 3.....
"Thank you for greetig your teacher." Sit down, please.
As for the name question...Teacher....that's what the students call their
teachers (������) not teacher + Kim etc.
Don't allow students to call out "Teacher, teacher, teacher.....in class.
"Just raise your hand and I''ll call on you." Another good time to use a
"whiny" (girlie?) voice ....Mommy, mommy, ���� ����!!!
As much as possible, "Be here now" .....connect with your students
world.
Sorry to run on....hope it helps. |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Whether a students uses "��" or not is really low priority. The students, on the most part, think it's a load of crap, so why would one want the students to fill us with a load of BS. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Nice replies. Everyone has their own take on it, that's for sure.
Urban Myth: I actually do study Korean and I think that's one of the reasons my students speak Korean to me so often, since they know there's a good chance I'll understand. Usually, when they ask me a question, I'll reflexively answer, and then retract and make them ask it again in English, so it's a bit annoying in that respect.
MJ Roach: Be Here Now was one of my favorite books (if that's what you were referencing). I should make a greater effort to keep those thoughts ready in my mind rather than getting caught up in trivialities. I don't know about that whole bowing thing. What if a student refuses? That could turn into a major authority-losing situation for the teacher, right?
I'm almost finished with this contract and am leaving for another place in April, but I'm still looking for ideas and suggestions on how to improve as a teacher, and as a person coping with such a different culture. Thanks for the insight, y'all.
Q. |
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MeanyMichi
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: SNOW!!!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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I went to a German high school until (and including) grade 10.
In grade 9 our teachers started calling us "Herr" (Mr.)/"Fraeulein" (Miss) + last name, and used polite language ("Sie" instead of "Du").
Some teachers asked if it would be all right for them to call us by our first name, in which case we would also call them by their first name and use familiar language ("Du").
I agree with the poster who said that respect is earned, but that one should still use polite language in order not to appear rude onself, even if you don't respect the person you are talking to.
Not sure if 15/16 is the right age to start this, but in my opinion, someone who is old enough to vote, is also old enough to be treated as an adult, and should be talked to as such.
I'm taking a Korean class (in Vancouver) now. The teacher insists that we use the �Դϴ� form when talking to her, and �ʴϴ� when talking about her. She also wants us to bow to her as we leave the class. Not the way students bow to the teacher in a public school in Korea, where the teacher kind of bows back. No, we file out individually, bowing to her.
Maybe she's just trying to teach Korean culture  but it really bugs me. I thought now that I was back in Canada I wouldn't have to put up with the whole "respect me simply because I'm older than you!" BS.
So I talk to her using the �� form, and just nod my head as I leave. |
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JiWoo
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Location: America
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Just my two cents...I speak Korean and studied German in college. The languages are similar in that they do have a formal and informal style of speech, but after that the similarities end.
In Korean �ݸ� is used when you're with friends and people you're close to but it doesn't necessarily imply those feelings. It's very unlikely that students, especially young kids will ever use it because they feel like you're they're friend. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's they completely disrespect you (nonetheless it is disrespectful and they know it). In my opinion a lot of it may be because they don't look at the teacher as a normal person....he/she is an oddity at best and for some reason the kids don't feel that any of the rules or customs apply to him/her (the teacher). Also young kids learn it before they learn any kind of formal speech (btw there's 7 types in all) and they find it easier to use.
I personally would not allow it. Because of the size of the age gap there is only impoliteness implied and not friendship. There are lots of kids that I rough house with and play games with and they feel very comfortable around me, but they use the "��" ending. Many korean kids use it when speaking to their parents, not because of a lack of closeness, but because it would be disrespectful otherwise. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JiWoo wrote: |
| Also young kids learn it before they learn any kind of formal speech (btw there's 7 types in all) and they find it easier to use. |
More information here for those interested in the other types of conjugation.
| Quote: |
| I personally would not allow it. Because of the size of the age gap there is only impoliteness implied and not friendship. There are lots of kids that I rough house with and play games with and they feel very comfortable around me, but they use the "��" ending. Many korean kids use it when speaking to their parents, not because of a lack of closeness, but because it would be disrespectful otherwise. |
I agree with you about not allowing it, but constantly having to remind them to speak to me properly sort of kills the whole point. It reminds me of when I was young and my mother would make me apologize for something -- a hollow gesture. The past few days, I've been taking the advice of some people in this thread who say to just ignore all Korean. It's kinda hard to do, but it seems to be working.
Thanks for your opinion!
Q. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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A modest proposal: Why not avoid this whole question altogether by telling your students to speak to you only in English. After all, the best way to learn a language is to practice that language.
If they speak English to their classmates, reinforce them like crazy.
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A modest proposal: Why not avoid this whole question altogether by telling your students to speak to you only in English. After all, the best way to learn a language is to practice that language. |
What a great idea in a perfect world. All of you who say "oh I just ignore Korean" Well, I don't. I have kids of all different levels. I refuse to ignore the lower level kids by ignoring them because they can't say the right word in English or can't get a good sentence or bad one for that matter of fact in english.
I encourage them to speak English. I teach in English but I am also realistic. I want them to enjoy the fact that they "can" learn some English and I don't want them to feel bad because they "can't".
This is giant pet peeve of mine with some teachers. You know folks, alot of these kids are not ever going to leave Korea. Most are going to lead average lives in average cities with average husbands or wives. Now granted some will excel in foreign language and I try to identify those kids right away in their first year and do my best to nuture them.
But if they remember someday that they had a good english teacher who was kind and understanding maybe they might encourage their children to study a foreign language and be more apt to improve their skill later on when grades aren't riding on it.
You know mostly I want them to feel good about learning some English. I don't ignore them if they speak to me in Korean. Because that is mean and other kids will make fun of them. If they try and succeed then there are kudos aplenty. If they fail I tell them how to say what they are trying to say and have them say it back to me.
I teach around 1,100 students every week. I see them once a week. My classes are based on their books because the get tested on my class and the other english classes they take during the week.
For kids that want extra there are plenty of opportunities. I have built a small english library with books in english and brought back some comic books in English and loads of age appropriate DVD's with English subtitles all which are available for checkout.
I hold classes after school for students that want to improve their English. I teach camps in the summer and winter. Both are usually filled to capacity.
I find it arrogant and just plain mean to ignore a kid. Some of my kids are special needs kids and can hardly string together a decent sentence in Korean and I am supposed to further alienate them by ignoring them.
Two boys come to mind that I had over the last 3 years. As first years they were horrific. One literally scared me and the other was ADD or something but they had problems with him just wandering out of the class room. The first boy I think was getting some kind of treatment and actually had another student as a sort of "minder". Second student I think got on a regime of either drugs or diet because he did a radical turn he was far more attentive in class.
Now neither of these boys ever did that well in English but they could say Miss Jade. Thank you, please and some other sentences. Sometimes they would stay after class and help me clean up my class room. They were never great at english but when they graduated from middle school they knew some english words and could say basic sentences. That could have never happened if I had the NO KOREAN in the class room rule.
They also saw that a foreigner could be understanding and kind. They frequentl asked ....what's this in English. The did say it Korean and I didn't care. The fact that they wanted to know something in English was enough for me. The fact they wanted to learn was exciting because they struggled hard in their Korean classes.
I know many of you will disagree with me but I teach so many students and I want them to not to just suffer through my class. I want them to be excited. I want to beam with pride every time they do something right. No matter how small the victory I celebrate.
My boys are amazing and I will use whatever it takes to get them enjoy the process of learning. This is important too. Maybe I have become more pragmatic in my years in a public school but test scores keep going up and every year more and more of the students get scholarships to foreign language high school. I hope in some small way I contribute to these improvements.
I can't afford the rarifed arrogance of ignoring a child.
Jade...bring it cuz I believe in my students and myself. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A modest proposal: Why not avoid this whole question altogether by telling your students to speak to you only in English. After all, the best way to learn a language is to practice that language. |
What a great idea in a perfect world. All of you who say "oh I just ignore Korean" Well, I don't. I have kids of all different levels. I refuse to ignore the lower level kids by ignoring them because they can't say the right word in English or can't get a good sentence or bad one for that matter of fact in english.
I encourage them to speak English. I teach in English but I am also realistic. I want them to enjoy the fact that they "can" learn some English and I don't want them to feel bad because they "can't".
This is giant pet peeve of mine with some teachers. You know folks, alot of these kids are not ever going to leave Korea. Most are going to lead average lives in average cities with average husbands or wives. Now granted some will excel in foreign language and I try to identify those kids right away in their first year and do my best to nuture them.
But if they remember someday that they had a good english teacher who was kind and understanding maybe they might encourage their children to study a foreign language and be more apt to improve their skill later on when grades aren't riding on it.
You know mostly I want them to feel good about learning some English. I don't ignore them if they speak to me in Korean. Because that is mean and other kids will make fun of them. If they try and succeed then there are kudos aplenty. If they fail I tell them how to say what they are trying to say and have them say it back to me.
I teach around 1,100 students every week. I see them once a week. My classes are based on their books because the get tested on my class and the other english classes they take during the week.
For kids that want extra there are plenty of opportunities. I have built a small english library with books in english and brought back some comic books in English and loads of age appropriate DVD's with English subtitles all which are available for checkout.
I hold classes after school for students that want to improve their English. I teach camps in the summer and winter. Both are usually filled to capacity.
I find it arrogant and just plain mean to ignore a kid. Some of my kids are special needs kids and can hardly string together a decent sentence in Korean and I am supposed to further alienate them by ignoring them.
Two boys come to mind that I had over the last 3 years. As first years they were horrific. One literally scared me and the other was ADD or something but they had problems with him just wandering out of the class room. The first boy I think was getting some kind of treatment and actually had another student as a sort of "minder". Second student I think got on a regime of either drugs or diet because he did a radical turn he was far more attentive in class.
Now neither of these boys ever did that well in English but they could say Miss Jade. Thank you, please and some other sentences. Sometimes they would stay after class and help me clean up my class room. They were never great at english but when they graduated from middle school they knew some english words and could say basic sentences. That could have never happened if I had the NO KOREAN in the class room rule.
They also saw that a foreigner could be understanding and kind. They frequentl asked ....what's this in English. The did say it Korean and I didn't care. The fact that they wanted to know something in English was enough for me. The fact they wanted to learn was exciting because they struggled hard in their Korean classes.
I know many of you will disagree with me but I teach so many students and I want them to not to just suffer through my class. I want them to be excited. I want to beam with pride every time they do something right. No matter how small the victory I celebrate.
My boys are amazing and I will use whatever it takes to get them enjoy the process of learning. This is important too. Maybe I have become more pragmatic in my years in a public school but test scores keep going up and every year more and more of the students get scholarships to foreign language high school. I hope in some small way I contribute to these improvements.
I can't afford the rarifed arrogance of ignoring a child.
Jade...bring it cuz I believe in my students and myself. |
Very well put. I have two mentally handicapped girls and I wish I could communicate with them better in any language. |
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