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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Bucheon Bum wrote:
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I don't thnk OTOH was strictly refering to Iraq. The whole Bush speel was Iraq would be the beginning of democracy in the arab world. well when we resist hamas and hizballah's victories and look the other way when Egypt postpones elections, it really doesn't matter what happens in Iraq (nor how well we run a PR campaign)- our push in the region will look self-serving and BS.
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No, I wasn't just referring to Iraq, though that was the main country that I had in mind when I wrote the post.
(1)When I said "democracy", what I really meant was the whole "package" that Americans were sold by Bush and Co, that is a democratic, secular, pro-US Iraq leading the rest of the middle east into a similar state of political existence. And I don't think that's anywhere near being achieved in Iraq, much less elsewhere in the region.
Urban Myth wrote:
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| We started with the Magna Carta (which pretty much gave only the noblemen [some] protection at first. Such changes take time and plenty of it. |
(2)True. But then, the signing of the Magna Carta wasn't done under the sponsorship of a foreign power which had convinced its own citizenry to endorse a bloody invasion of England in order to bring about mass democracy. If that HAD been the case, then I think that the citizens of the invading nation would have been pretty ticked off to hear that all they were gonna see in their lifetime was a document limiting the rights of the king to beat up on the noblemen. |
Numbers are mine
1. Like I said though, that will take time. And I gave a number of reasons why Iraq is looking more hopeful. The insurgents are in talks with U.S. forces. That's a BIG step forwards. Obviously they've come to the realization that they can't beat the U.S. by military means alone. Nor is the whole country in flames, it is basically three provinces.
2. Well I really wasn't comparing the Magna Carta with the Iraqi constitution per se. All I was attempting to show is that democracy generally doesn't spring from the ground full-fledged. You take two steps forwards and one step back. It seems that lately people have been focusing too much on the steps backwards, and COMPLETELY ignoring the steps forwards. Granted there's a long way to go, but if the U.S hangs tough I believe it is winable. The Sunni majority at least want them to remain until the Sunnis are more securely in power with a well-trained police force and army. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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The Sunni majority at least want them to remain until the Sunnis are more securely in power with a well-trained police force and army.
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Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| I suppose the American hope somewhere is the radicalists will eventually become marginalized by the democratic electoral process; even the IRA has gone "mainstream" of a sort......specializing in extortion, drugs, and bank robbery now |
But the radicals are becoming empowered by the democratic process. Iraq is likely to become another Shariah, or Shariah-lite state, where women, religious minorities and secularists are oppressed. This is why the Bush doctrine in the Middle East is so flawed. It is based on a belief that democracy will bring Western style freedom and prosperity, whereas it will give Islam a greater political voice, and that can never be a good thing. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni.
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You are just trying to make an argument with the above statement. Stop it, its beneath some one of your intelligence. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| But the radicals are becoming empowered by the democratic process. |
Actually it may not totally be in their benefit. If they take democracy and turn it into a dictatorship, it will reflect badly on them. If they use democracy, later someone else will win and take over from them. Maybe a moderate. We can't foretell the future, but its not a guaranted bad thing democracy being used in the middle east. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni.
Summer wine wrote:
You are just trying to make an argument with the above statement. Stop it, its beneath some one of your intelligence. |
Err, no I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what he meant by that statement, and was asking for clarification and/or correction. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Summer Wine:
The misspelling of "wine" in the unedited version of the above post was unintentional. I tried to correct it as soon as I noticed, but the edit function was going at a snail's pace. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| This is why the Bush doctrine in the Middle East is so flawed. |
Agree 100% with this.
That the magical
"democracy will solve everything approach"
is a catastrophe should should by now be painfully obvious to everyone.
But for some reason it's not.
It reminds me a lot the remaining communists who continue to claim it is still the way forward, it's just that Marx & Engels & Lenin & Mao & Kim & Hoxha & Castro just didn't get it quite right... but next time it'll work properly! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Palestinians are tired of the infatah and Hamas, now that it is a political party will have to make some concessions in order to keep foreign aid going. |
What IS an "infatwa"?
The Intafada was, and possibly is, a desperate uprising among Palestinian youths who throw rocks at tanks in some sort of wierd hope it will keep their homes from being knocked down because the house it is next door to one a suspected violent extremist was seen leaving the day before. It brought the problems of such people to the world's attention because, well, because home were being knocked down. By tanks. And the people who lived in them had no other means to express their displeasure than to throw rocks. I think the word means "Uprising," and the movement as such was (possibly is) accompanied by a lot more public mass actions, most of them relatively noviolent ... well, nonviolent compared to knocking people's homes down with tanks, anyway.
A fatwa, on the oother hand, is a religious edict issued by a muslim scholar calling for the death or other sort of sanction upon an individual or group for crimes such as heresy or blasphemy. Khomeini issued a fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and he is thankfully still alive, though I think one of his publishers and a translator of his have not been so lucky.
I'm guessing TUM knows more than me, and if he has a moment perhaps he'll enlighten me about this new word his adding to our vocabulary. If not, well, I'm thinking about how many other productive ways I can use my time besides talking to someone who can so thoroughly confuse two Arab words used so commonly in the news ...
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Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni.
Summer wine wrote:
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You are just trying to make an argument with the above statement. Stop it, its beneath some one of your intelligence.
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| Err, no I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what he meant by that statement, and was asking for clarification and/or correction. |
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See, that's just what I'm talking about ... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
[
A fatwa, on the oother hand, is a religious edict issued by a muslim scholar calling for the death or other sort of sanction upon an individual or group for crimes such as heresy or blasphemy. Khomeini issued a fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and he is thankfully still alive, though I think one of his publishers and a translator of his have not been so lucky.
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no. A fatwa is any kind of edict made by by a religous leader. It can be anything from the rushdie one to "we need to pray more for our brothers in chechnya." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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The Sunni majority at least want them to remain until the Sunnis are more securely in power with a well-trained police force and army.
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Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni. |
Whoops, I meant "the Shiite majority" Shouldn't post when I'm tired and have had a few. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Palestinians are tired of the infatah and Hamas, now that it is a political party will have to make some concessions in order to keep foreign aid going. |
(1) What IS an "infatwa"?
(2) The Intafada was, and possibly is, a desperate uprising among Palestinian youths who throw rocks at tanks in some sort of wierd hope it will keep their homes from being knocked down because the house it is next door to one a suspected violent extremist was seen leaving the day before. It brought the problems of such people to the world's attention (3) because, well, because home were being knocked down. By tanks. And the people who lived in them had no other means to express their displeasure than to throw rocks. I think the word means "Uprising," and the movement as such was (possibly is) accompanied by a lot more (4) public mass actions, most of them relatively noviolent ... well, nonviolent compared to knocking people's homes down with tanks, anyway.
(5) A fatwa, on the oother hand, is a religious edict issued by a muslim scholar calling for the death or other sort of sanction upon an individual or group for crimes such as heresy or blasphemy. Khomeini issued a fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and he is thankfully still alive, though I think one of his publishers and a translator of his have not been so lucky.
(6) I'm guessing TUM knows more than me, and if he has a moment perhaps he'll enlighten me about this new word (7) his adding to our vocabulary. If not, well, I'm thinking about how many other productive ways I can use my time besides talking to someone who can so thoroughly confuse two Arab words used so commonly in the news ...
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Do you mean to say "the Shiite majority", or perhaps "the majority of Sunnis"? Because the way this is written it sounds as if you're saying that majority of Iraqis are Sunni.
Summer wine wrote:
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You are just trying to make an argument with the above statement. Stop it, its beneath some one of your intelligence.
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| Err, no I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what he meant by that statement, and was asking for clarification and/or correction. |
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See, that's just what I'm talking about ... |
(numbers are mine)
1. So you are going to complain about my spelling ?
Two can play at that kind of game.
2. What is "wierd"? Do you mean weird?
3. "...home were being knocked down"? Do you mean homes?
4. What is "noviolent"?
5. As Mr Bucheon Bum pointed out, you are incorrect. Hoist by your own petard ...beautiful
6. This is the first thing you have said that is correct.
7. You don't know the difference between 'he's' and "his" and you are an English teacher? That's just sad for "someone who can so throughly confuse two {English] words used so commonly in the news" (and in everyday speech as well).
I will just leave you with these three thoughts. (a) People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. (b)And while there is some excuse for spelling unfamilar Arab words wrong, there is less for spelling familar English words wrong. (c) In future when you attack someone for getting something wrong, be sure you are correct yourself (see fatwa).
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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So Mr. The Bobster, do you actually have anything to contribute to the discussion besides taking petty and cheap shots at me (and making yourself look foolish to boot)?
Didn't think so.
Admittedly I'm a poor speller. But on the other hand I don't go around complaining about people spelling things wrong...at least until they attack me. Sauce for the goose and that kind of thing.
So if you want to complain about my spelling go ahead. But at least spell correctly yourself. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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Err, no I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what he meant by that statement, and was asking for clarification and/or correction.
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My bad  We have been made aware from the 1990's that the majority of Iraqi's are Shiite, so I figured you must be looking for an argument, by stating that he may not be aware of Iraq's religious/ethnic percentages. (general numbers). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
Err, no I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what he meant by that statement, and was asking for clarification and/or correction.
My bad We have been made aware from the 1990's that the majority of Iraqi's are Shiite, so I figured you must be looking for an argument, by stating that he may not be aware of Iraq's religious/ethnic percentages. (general numbers). |
No, I was pretty sure that Urban Myth wouldn't have flubbed that one up. But in retrospect I can see how it could be interpreted in the way that you did. No worries. |
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