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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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 Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: |
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you wanna bet that, once the "withdrawl" occurs, we'll here about how great Iraq is doing?
With the next question, logically being: Why? |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
A. Eventually the Iraqi army improves to be able to take on the insurgents then the US will be able to stay out of much of the combat.
B. Especailly if Iraqi army does much of the fighting? |
This is assuming, of course, that the insugents have not already infiltrated the Iraqi army/police forces...
Pentagon Fears Iraqi Army Infiltrated by Insurgents |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mills wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
A. Eventually the Iraqi army improves to be able to take on the insurgents then the US will be able to stay out of much of the combat.
B. Especailly if Iraqi army does much of the fighting? |
This is assuming, of course, that the insugents have not already infiltrated the Iraqi army/police forces...
Pentagon Fears Iraqi Army Infiltrated by Insurgents |
I don't doubt that the army has been infiltrated by Insurgents.
That being said most of the insurgents are sunnis from the middle of the country. Sunni Arabs are only 20% of Iraqs population. The Sunni Kurds and Shia Arab hate the insurgents , and the Kurds actually support the US in fact.
There are Shia's who are against the US but they are mostly Sadr's forces while that is true it is also true that the US has co -opted some of the Sunnis to support the Iraqi government.
The numbers are against the insurgents. Unless someone thinks that 20% of the country can defeat 80% of the country. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Eventually the Iraqi army improves to be able to take on the insurgents then the US will be able to stay out of much of the combat. Then US forces can be used for geo political objectives.
There is a lot of fighting in Iraq , but there was a lot of mass killing in Iraq before the US was there.
How does US forces in Kurdistan make Iraq a quagmire. Especailly if Iraqi army does much of the fighting? |
No Iraq unit is ready. Even the Pentagon admitted as much a couple of weeks ago. The promise that Iraqi soldiers could handle the situation themselves has been setback again and again. I would not be surprised if 1 year from now we are still in the same boat. |
They are not ready by US standards which are very high however many of them can in fact fight with the US playing no more than logistics support. You should check the article where you got the info and you will see that to be true. |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Mills wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
A. Eventually the Iraqi army improves to be able to take on the insurgents then the US will be able to stay out of much of the combat.
B. Especailly if Iraqi army does much of the fighting? |
This is assuming, of course, that the insugents have not already infiltrated the Iraqi army/police forces...
Pentagon Fears Iraqi Army Infiltrated by Insurgents |
I don't doubt that the army has been infiltrated by Insurgents.
That being said most of the insurgents are sunnis from the middle of the country. Sunni Arabs are only 20% of Iraqs population. The Sunni Kurds and Shia Arab hate the insurgents , and the Kurds actually support the US in fact.
There are Shia's who are against the US but they are mostly Sadr's forces while that is true it is also true that the US has co -opted some of the Sunnis to support the Iraqi government.
The numbers are against the insurgents. Unless someone thinks that 20% of the country can defeat 80% of the country. |
Your theory that Arab-Sunnis are only 20% of Iraq's population, therefore they only comprise 20% of its military is ill-formed. Even if your assumptions (a. 20% of military is Arab-Sunni, b. only Arab-Sunnis are insurgents) were true, it only takes a few insurgents to make the entire organization vulnerable.
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The attack is eerily similar to one in nearby Ramadi more than a year ago, when four Marine snipers were ambushed and killed.
In both cases, it's feared the Marines were betrayed by insurgents who had infiltrated the Iraqi military. In fact, a recent Pentagon report warns that some Iraqi military and police recruits may be insurgent or terrorist infiltrators.
��We need their skills and abilities, so we have to accept some level of risk in having them in the new security forces,�� said Jeffrey White, a Pentagon official. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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As soon as the Americans leave, Iraq will collapse into civil war. There will be no 'Iraqi' army, but central army made up largely of Shias. They will begin to exact revenge on the Sunnis for years of oppression under Saddam. The Kurds will seek greater autonomy, and perhaps secede. We should support them in this endeavour, as much as it may upset our 'allies' the Turks.
Iraq should be allowed to collapse, and the Kurds should be given military and economic support to help them create a viable state. The Kurds are much less susceptible to miltant Islam, as they rightly associate it with Arab supremacism. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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The Kurds will seek greater autonomy, and perhaps secede. We should support them in this endeavour, as much as it may upset our 'allies' the Turks.
Iraq should be allowed to collapse, and the Kurds should be given military and economic support to help them create a viable state. The Kurds are much less susceptible to miltant Islam, as they rightly associate it with Arab supremacism.
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I think if you do some reading and thinking that its almost apparent that this is what the Kurds are hoping upon happening. This would in how many centuries allow them an individual state and one supported by the fire power of the still strongest state. The US is losing it on the ground, if the Kurds controlled the ground and the US the air, then Kurdistan as a nation may exist for the first time? (in a long time?) ever. |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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The Kurds will seek greater autonomy, and perhaps secede. We should support them in this endeavour, as much as it may upset our 'allies' the Turks.
Iraq should be allowed to collapse, and the Kurds should be given military and economic support to help them create a viable state. The Kurds are much less susceptible to miltant Islam, as they rightly associate it with Arab supremacism.
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I think if you do some reading and thinking that its almost apparent that this is what the Kurds are hoping upon happening. This would in how many centuries allow them an individual state and one supported by the fire power of the still strongest state. The US is losing it on the ground, if the Kurds controlled the ground and the US the air, then Kurdistan as a nation may exist for the first time? (in a long time?) ever. |
The majority of Iraqi oil is in the North, the Kurd controlled region. To declare "Kurdistan" an atomonous state would leave the Sunni and Shia Iraqis resourceless. No way the US would let this happen. The whole Middle East would be devastated and we would just be stuck there even longer trying to figure out how we f_ucked things up so bad. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| To declare "Kurdistan" an atomonous state would leave the Sunni and Shia Iraqis resourceless. No way the US would let this happen. |
That would really depend on circumstances on the ground and I am not in a position to make that call. Though relying on information available in the public arena, I would not be so sure about your statement.
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| No way the US would let this happen |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| supernick wrote: |
| I doubt very much that U.S. troops will ever leave and probably, UK troops will still be there in smaller numbers in many years from now. |
Sadly, this has been done before... Bush will be quite happy to get out then say the failure was due to the hapless and gutless Iraqis and the traitorous Americans protesting the war... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Your theory that Arab-Sunnis are only 20% of Iraq's population, therefore they only comprise 20% of its military is ill-formed. Even if your assumptions (a. 20% of military is Arab-Sunni, b. only Arab-Sunnis are insurgents) were true, it only takes a few insurgents to make the entire organization vulnerable. |
might even beless than 20%. But that percentage is as good a guess as any.
Again I don't doubt that a few insurgents can make big trouble , but nevertheless the numbers are against them.
the vas majority of the insurgents are Sunni Arabs, other than Sadr and the Jihad fighters from out side of Iraq.
| Quote: |
| Feb. 6, 2006 issue - American officials in Iraq are in face-to-face talks with high-level Iraqi Sunni insurgents, NEWSWEEK has learned. Americans are sitting down with "senior members of the leadership" of the Iraqi insurgency, according to Americans and Iraqis with knowledge of the talks (who did not want to be identified when discussing a sensitive and ongoing matter). The talks are taking place at U.S. military bases in Anbar province, as well as in Jordan and Syria. "Now we have won over the Sunni political leadership," says U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad. "The next step is to win over the insurgents." The groups include Baathist cells and religious Islamic factions, as well as former Special Republican Guards and intelligence agents, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the talks. Iraq's insurgent groups are reaching back. "We want things from the U.S. side, stopping misconduct by U.S. forces, preventing Iranian intervention," said one prominent insurgent leader from a group called the Army of the Mujahedin, who refused to be named because of the delicacy of the discussions. "We can't achieve that without actual meetings." |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11079548/site/newsweek/
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Mills wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
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The Kurds will seek greater autonomy, and perhaps secede. We should support them in this endeavour, as much as it may upset our 'allies' the Turks.
Iraq should be allowed to collapse, and the Kurds should be given military and economic support to help them create a viable state. The Kurds are much less susceptible to miltant Islam, as they rightly associate it with Arab supremacism.
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I think if you do some reading and thinking that its almost apparent that this is what the Kurds are hoping upon happening. This would in how many centuries allow them an individual state and one supported by the fire power of the still strongest state. The US is losing it on the ground, if the Kurds controlled the ground and the US the air, then Kurdistan as a nation may exist for the first time? (in a long time?) ever. |
The majority of Iraqi oil is in the North, the Kurd controlled region. To declare "Kurdistan" an atomonous state would leave the Sunni and Shia Iraqis resourceless. No way the US would let this happen. The whole Middle East would be devastated and we would just be stuck there even longer trying to figure out how we f_ucked things up so bad. |
most of Iraqs' the oil is in fact in the south of Iraq in the Shia areas.
but the Kurdish areas have a lot too. |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| To declare "Kurdistan" an atomonous state would leave the Sunni and Shia Iraqis resourceless. No way the US would let this happen. |
That would really depend on circumstances on the ground and I am not in a position to make that call. Though relying on information available in the public arena, I would not be so sure about your statement.
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| No way the US would let this happen |
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The creation of three individual Iraqi states (Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish) was discussed before and immediately after the invasion. If this was a viable option would not we have begun to implement, rather than forcing a coalition government? |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Mills wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
The Kurds will seek greater autonomy, and perhaps secede. We should support them in this endeavour, as much as it may upset our 'allies' the Turks.
Iraq should be allowed to collapse, and the Kurds should be given military and economic support to help them create a viable state. The Kurds are much less susceptible to miltant Islam, as they rightly associate it with Arab supremacism.
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I think if you do some reading and thinking that its almost apparent that this is what the Kurds are hoping upon happening. This would in how many centuries allow them an individual state and one supported by the fire power of the still strongest state. The US is losing it on the ground, if the Kurds controlled the ground and the US the air, then Kurdistan as a nation may exist for the first time? (in a long time?) ever. |
The majority of Iraqi oil is in the North, the Kurd controlled region. To declare "Kurdistan" an atomonous state would leave the Sunni and Shia Iraqis resourceless. No way the US would let this happen. The whole Middle East would be devastated and we would just be stuck there even longer trying to figure out how we f_ucked things up so bad. |
most of Iraqs' the oil is in fact in the south of Iraq in the Shia areas.
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Most of Iraq's oil? Oil what? Deposits or infrastructure? Granted, most Iraqi oil production (pre-invasion) was in the southern Shia Arab region. Now? Most infrastructure there (Shia Arab region) was destroyed during the invasion by insurgents. Rebuilt? Not yet.
So... my original statement "the majority of Iraqi oil is (not "was" and not "deposits") in the North" is more factual than yours, "most of Iraqs' the oil is in fact in the south of Iraq in the Shia areas", because the Kurds oil infrastructure is still hopping along nicely, they are able to process a product for resale.
Iraq Pre-Invasion Oil Fields and Facilities |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
That being said most of the insurgents are sunnis from the middle of the country. Sunni Arabs are only 20% of Iraqs population. The Sunni Kurds and Shia Arab hate the insurgents , and the Kurds actually support the US in fact.
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A bombing raid of Iran will quickly change all that. |
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